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Thornycroft 2422 MTB

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martin ej View Drop Down
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    Posted: 20 October 2007 at 9:12pm

Does anyone have info on the RN numbers for this design?

Also any drawings / photos of the 40mm Bofors as fitted to this craft.

Regards

Martin

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Christian View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Christian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 October 2007 at 10:34am

Hi Martin

I'm afraid you have me stumped, I can't think what the number 2422 refers to, and I can't think of a Thornycroft MTB fitted with a 40mm Bofors. Sorry to be so useless, can you give us some more pointers please?

Do you mean a post war Vosper-Thornycroft design?

A Brave perhaps? Brave Borderer was P1011 and Brave Swordsman was P1012. These vessels carried one 40mm Bofors when configured as MTBs and two 40mm Bofors when configured as MGBs.

Regards,

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pioneer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 October 2007 at 12:29pm

Hello Martin - Welcome aboard!

Christian has covered my original thoughts on your question - just maybe I thought - were you refering to MTB's 24 and 22 ? - one of those (24) being a Thorneycroft - but to shoot that idea down in flames - 22 was an early Vosper. The 40mm Bofor - the only images that I have seen has shown several armament profiles including 20mm single and twin Oerlikon's - but - not a 40mm Bofor - that does not rule it out however as I have spoken with a Veteran (2nd) Officer - who was involved in early trials with a Bofor (in the Med - yes trials in the Med!) on an ML - not very successful evidently - first shot very much 'over' - second shot 3 feet off the Port side . There is an excellent line drawing of the Mk 3 Bofor, as used by the US Navy, in John Lambert and Al Ross's work "Allied Coastal Forces of WW2" Volume 1.

I'm sure that somebody may be able assist you further Martin - keep popping back

Regards

Ted

 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Christian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 October 2007 at 12:53pm

Hi Ted

As an aside, the 40mm US Army Bofors was used in service on RAN Fairmiles against the wishes of the Admiralty who wanted them to use various 2 and 3 pdrs, they however proved very successful despite their relatively slow laying and training rates.

I got this snippet from Fairmile Ships Of The RAN Vol I, a good read.

 

Cheers, 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tramontana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2007 at 10:31am
I have a record of lend/ lease Higgins M.T.B.'S 419 to 423 having  American 40mm's fitted (1) made available in 1943 to R.N. they could have been re-numbered at sometime. My understanding was that it was not unusual for Skippers of small attack craft to "filch guns" from elsewhere and fit them on unofficially of course usually in the Med region of operations.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote martin ej Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2007 at 1:34pm

Hi all,

Thanks for all the comments.

A little more.

According to Thornycroft drawings the RN numbers 24, 25, and 28 were allocated; but clearly as dated Nov 1939, not confirmed. Now there is evidence that '24' is the service number.

Now I know that MTB 24 probably did have the Bofors 40mm as indicated on drawing No 23102 of 17-6-1939. The hull drawings confirm 'as constructed', presumably with the appropriate mountings for the Bofors.

For the benefit of others the boat number 2422 is drawn showing four Thornycroft engines, (two to each prop), but a pencil addition (undated) shows a change in prop shaft line and  a revised prop dia of 27.5 inch to accomodate the Packard engines, (presumably two?).Taken from the hull details, drawn 1938 Drg No 22900

The armament tally for this particular boat comprising of:-

Two 18" torpedo tubes.

Ten depth charges in two roll-off stern racks,

The Bofors 40mm on the aft deck.

Two machine gun positions, one on foredeck and one between the pair of engine hatches and the single engine room hatch aft of the above. The type of machine gun is not given. Again any ideas? I suspect at the vintage of the drawing single 303, but Thornycroft did have well advanced ideas so 50 cal could be possible. (An opinion supported from annother drawing of mid 1939 that shows 21" torpedo tubes when this torpedo did not seemingly enter service till late 1941!)

The machine gun mounts are just a circular flanged socket approximately 4" bore dia,

Thanks again to all, and especialy the coment regards the US Navy who were so prolific in their 'field mods'. I know it took me a year of solid research to sort out what PT109 probably had on board, and what had been 'junked' during JFK's refit.

I hate to knock the Yanks, but PT109 is based on a Thornycroft hull design, all be it built under licence by Elco and others. PT109 is a therefore a British boat.

One final point. The National Maritime Museum, Grenwich, London has an archive section open for private research. The Thornycroft collection is as yet not fully catalogued and tends to be rather chaotic. However the Curator, (Plans and Photos), Andrew Choong is more than helpfull.

Best regards to all and I am open to even more info concerning MTB 24. A photo would be just perfect!

Martin ej

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tramontana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2007 at 3:06pm

Thornycroft M.T.B. 24  is listed as having 3x issota's when built, the drawings may have been the proposals when the issota's were going to be removed or could be for the Irish boats m.1-6 which were taken off the same hull and probably had variations to the armament and engine set up, it was of course a time when all sorts of "experimental" craft were built from hydrofoils to stepped hulls by various builders including Thornycroft and some vessel's can be difficult to pin down.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pioneer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2007 at 5:33pm

I have been informed that John Lambert Plans have produced drawings of MTB 24 & 25 - (See L/S/62)

Also drawings L/S/23 A-B shows a much larger Thornycroft design - MTB's 49- 57 that the Admiralty could use only for Target Towing (G/Box probs) the survivors eventually being sold to Ireland.

Source: JL Plans

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tramontana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2007 at 10:13pm
M.T.B's 24&25 were 72ft, 49-56 were 75 1/2 ft with 2shaft Thornycroft and transferred to the War office as MEGGIDO, MENIN, MESSINES, MARNE, MONS, MONTAUBAN, MORVAL, NABLUS. they may  well have been sold to the Irish eventually as you say,  but as far as I am aware M1-M6 were of the 72ft type which were sold to the Irish as to whether they had Issota's fitted when sold I have no info on but I suspect not which is where the changes may have come in on the drawings referred to by martin ej. Armament on 24&25 was 4-.5 (2x2),  Mg's; 2-21 in. T.T.  There is a photo of a Vosper  with 4 Packards fitted on a two shaft job both pairs running through a central g/box on the shaft line.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pioneer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2007 at 10:52pm
The Vosper that you refer to could be MTB 510 - a unique and one off "long boat" similar in outline to the Fairmile breed. This was an experimental craft having 4 packards on 2 shafts as you say. Although 'armed' it was not used operationally. A full desciption of this boat can be found in John Lambert and Al Ross's "Allied Coastal Forces of WW2" Volumn 2.
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