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MTB 506

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 July 2007 at 9:59am
sorry did not mean to offend anyone with my comments previously but was just trying to make a point that these boats and their equipment are not worth a great deal in the monetary sense. Yes an engine may be valued at 25k but only when the money charges hands and the deal done can you say you got their value.
The boat complete is a salable item but because of its size and running costs will have a limited buying market, strip it out and all you have are bits which on their own may add up to a sensible amount but the time and labour and storage counter this route and you would still be left with a hull to dispose of, ie Golden Gallion.
lesser of two evils i am afraid reality checks all round, as for visiting the yard I will leave a post when the next one comes in two at present in the books, which one gets here first not sure but will let you know.
yes the comment re fire was below the belt and as it was arson makes that even more so.

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northeastuser View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote northeastuser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 July 2007 at 11:58am

Yes I do agree with you wizard to a certain extent. The difficulties of owning and restoring one of these boats are high. And I guess until you have done one or two then you will never be able to plan for everything.

But those of us who do this for the love of these vessels aren’t all stupid. I expect to make mistakes, e.g. a steep learning curve.

Its almost like your saying that its too difficult and we shouldn’t even try. If that’s the case what did you have in the beginning that we don’t?

Also your assertion would have a bit more influence if you didn’t make a living fixing these vessels. Your saying its way to expensive and we should get real. Is that an indication of how much you charge?

Don’t get me wrong, everyone has to earn a living. I have no problem with that. However if I was to tell people not to get into my line of business because its simply not worth it as an amateur then what do you think they would say?? Probably something along the lines of “well you would say that”

To have a lumber yard machine one plank for a vessel I was quoted 18 pounds. To buy a bulk of timber from the same place and machine 5 planks out of it my self was going to cost me 25 pound in total. Iv bought all that machinery to do it for 500 pound. Either the wastage was horrendous or the profit was, either way its disgusting.

While people believe they have to employ the services of such places then vessels of this nature will be left to rot. The more people who tackle this image of only being for the rich and get on and repair/restore their vessels then the more will realise that they don’t need to employ an expensive boatyard to do their repairs. When that happens then more vessels will be saved.

Don’t get me wrong, there will always be boatyards and there will always be a need for the knowledge they contain. But when you tell anyone who tries to do the work them selves that they have no idea of the cost or work involved than you cant really be surprised if they ignore you.

If your support and knowledge was freely given then people would agree more with you.

But do me a favour and stop being such a wet blanket. I mean that in the nicest way .Your never going to put us off or tell us something we haven’t already figured out when it comes to negatives.

No offence intended as I consider your knowledge to be invaluable. But please take no offence if I try and do the job my self first and fail.



Edited by northeastuser
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 July 2007 at 12:26pm
maths was never my finest subject but  £500 for the machinery plus the timber ads up to more than  £25 in total but i guess you say you still have the machinery to do the next plank. As for us extortionate overpriced businesses with our slipways for getting boats out of the water and back in, who pay the insurance to cover our work plus all that machinery that stands there doing nowt because you have your machinery to save money, well carry on without us I say.
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johnk View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote johnk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 July 2007 at 12:28pm

Hi there,

 

Indeed, of course we need the yards and skills but of course it is going to cost. Only a few and now even fewer people today, are prepared to tackle work themselves so that's why we have yards and garages and even people who come round and put up shelves!. However, there are people around and I have met and seen thier work, who can albeit with a great deal of hard work, do a lot themselves, but they are in the minority it has to be said, hence we shall always need good places for work to be done.

 

Johnk  

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clive View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clive Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 July 2007 at 1:01pm

Oh dear Billy,

I dont know where to begin on commenting about what you have posted with regard to the Wizard, obviously he can fight his own battles But you have to realise what the real world consists of..

businesses have to employ people, pay holiday, sick etc,

health and safety also costs a rediculous amount, materials are not cheap neither is machinery, ok a B+Q saw bench will get you a bit of wood cut but you wont find one at Newsons.

My machinery is all 3 phase and is not cheap to buy or maintain, My business rates are not cheap neither is my insurance or electricity (the later two have doubled in the last 3 years) neither is it cheap to heat a shed to the temperature acceptable for using machinery. Also bear in mind that riverside land is not cheap and that is where you will find most boatyards,

My dad has always told me 'a little knowlege is a dangerous thing'  beleive me the number of decnet boats I have seen ruined by 'have a go boatbuilders' is sad. double diagonal is vastly different to a carvel build.

I am sure if you wanted to set up a similar business next door to Newsons they would not be affected or bothered that you were there.

ALL the advice you were given said the same thing, from boatyard owners or otherwise. There was encouragment as you seemed determined to bring her back no matter what. Very few boatyards will 'pick up where you have left off ' so trying to tackle a 70foot renovation in your spare time was only ever going to be a learning curve so as long as it did not cost anything or inconvenience anyone there was never an issue in trying to do the job yourself.

I would guess that in the beginning Keith had a trade or years of experience.

sorry if this is not in order!

 

masbie something in the water.   www.freewebs.com/masb32/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote northeastuser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 July 2007 at 2:48pm

No offence taken at all Clive. We are all entitled to a say. But that goes both ways.

But I do know what happens in the real world. Ok your business may be bigger than mine.you may even have a bigger ‘boat ‘than me.

But I have and do employ people and pay rates, insurance etc. I believe elsewhere you spoke of doing ‘32 your self? Turning her upside down and re-planking etc. why was that? Did anyone tell you to get real and pull your head out of the sand? Or imply that you were going to set up a boatyard? (though I suspect in your line of business you already have one) What would you have said if they did? I suspect you would have defended your right to do as you wish.

When ‘32 started taking water on , how many people insulted your decision to try and sail her home after the fact?

So are you still doing ‘32 your self or sending her to Newsons?

My equipment is not from b & q. anyone who has been on this forum long enough will know I bought the equipment from a gent who’s father made and restored yachts. Ok not the newest and best of equipment but I happen to like cast iron.

Regarding Keith I have communicated with him in private regarding the Ambra and I found his advice very helpful.

My comments were not directed at wizard’s work, more at the general attitude that we should not try because we lack the experience or funds. As for not ‘picking up where iv left off‘ Are you saying that a boatyard (say for example Newsons) would Refuse work if it was too hard?

In the beginning Keith had years of experience?? Well that was hardly the beginning then was it?

I’m not expecting to have a boat in the water for a few hundred quid. Unlike your self Clive, I certainly can’t afford to employ Newsons to restore a vessel for me, but it doesn’t mean that I cant afford to do the boat my self if I am smart about it. The same goes for others, just because we cant afford to pay for ‘experts’ to do it doesn’t necessarily mean we can’t do it. If boats were only for the rich I recon Newsons trade would go right down hill as the amount of boats out there would drop considerably.

There’s nowt wrong with a bit gentle advice, but when its continually chucked at you right left and centre you begin to feel like your getting a bit sick of the continual put downs and insults to your intelligence. Especially when there’s a bit of ‘I told you so ‘ feel to it.

Now apparently I don’t ‘realise what the real world consists of.’ Cheers Clive.(no offence taken, just trying to point out the reson for my 'attitude')

Keith, I’m curious. Does your above statement mean I’m never to darken your door?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 July 2007 at 3:31pm
the answer to that question  is that you are always welcome to come and visit, talk and ask questions, we are her to help, my point was that I see many people come and take on boats even little ones thinking they can get it done up for a fraction of the cost in the yard. Only to find that they don't know how to do this bit and can you just show me how to fit this bit etc. The odd bit of advice is not a problem its the time when you slip a boat for someone and then they ask how to do the job because they want to do it on the cheap.
Not every one is like that but you would not go into the garage and ask them how to change the clutch, borrow their ramp and do the work yourself and not pay for the info and equipment.
We have a boat here that has been with us now for 10years, the owner at first paid for lots of work to be carried out and got carried away with the job, now it sits forgotten and languishing in the yard and all the work has been wasted along with the money.
It is scary to see what some people take on and all i am trying to say [badly obviously] is not t get carried away with the illusion that everything is worth saving because when you are gone the next person may think differently and it would have been for nothing. find the right boat and with the right backing and the inevitable shed load of money something worth saving will live on, but you can't do them all.
ps I am a middle aged not well off guy who works for a living and loves boats, "ALL BOATS" and when not at work I read boats.
but when I want my car done i go to the garage
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote northeastuser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 July 2007 at 3:40pm

Ok wizard , thank you for that. I have in the past been a garage owner and believe me you get asked a lot worse. usually by people why know you. Cheeky sods.

Truce I hope.

I’m going to repeat something iv just said to someone else today as I think its relevant.

Newcomers may come to this forum looking for help or advice about an old boat they have.

Reading the comments here they may be to scared to say anything or ask because they will be told “don’t bother you cant afford it ,get real ETC”

Now how many boats have we lost, how many have been abandoned and burned to the keel because the owners thought they were un-saveable.

If I allow the last word on the subject to be “don’t bother, get real” then I’m going against everything I’m here for.

So I hope you forgive my attitude a bit.

And yes I have in the past given up on boat projects and got rid of them the same way I got them. E.G gave them away lol. So I do know what your saying.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clive Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 July 2007 at 3:56pm

I have a boatyard which does not specialise in double diagonal, we do have some of the best tradesmen on the broads but as my hoist will only go upto 50foot it makes sense to let keith do the lift and survey. I have knowledge of fitting which is the work I personally will enjoy doing, I may even attempt some work on the decks but that is about it.

 I could still do all the things you mentioned re cradle and planking but when I say myself I mean 'the boatyard' the reason for the decision to start off at Newsons is that the boatyard is busy, my projects go to the back  of the que and it will probably not really end up costing much more depending on the amount of work needed which keith will tell me for less than the cost of me hireing a crane.

 

masbie something in the water.   www.freewebs.com/masb32/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tramontana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 July 2007 at 4:13pm
I am sure Clive's main concern is one of safety which is why he is having 32 shipped around at great expense rather than sailed, as I have indicated before you cannot risk a less than decent vessel through the Bay Of Biscay, the only way to do a  hull on a B.P. boat is to strip it out and turn it upside down which is how they were built and the way H.S.L.102 was refurbished, fastening a plank down is easier than fastening a plank up, nobody is in any doubt about the quality of the workmanship on 102 and it is a  guide on how it should be done properly. Double Diag is a complex structure and repairing it with Plywood is not the answer even in the short term especally if you are going to sea.
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