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Printed From: BMPT Forum
Category: Boats (In alphabetical order)
Forum Name: Target Towing Launches
Forum Description: Discussion on Target Towing Launches
URL: http://www.bmpt.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=257
Printed Date: 23 February 2020 at 4:54am


Topic: 2753
Posted By: d-zine
Subject: 2753
Date Posted: 04 January 2007 at 3:00pm

Hi All,

A few of you may be aware that I am the new owner of 2753 - FLYWOOD. I purchased her from Christians father Hector Cappuro Sheppard a little earlier this year, so I thought I would share with you some of the photo's and information that I have gathered.

Thanks go to Christian and his Father for the file of information passed across with the sale as well as Phil Simons for his Knowledge and hopefully VT Group (or at least their Librarian) for information that is promised.

Over the following posts I will outline Flywoods history and hopefully ask for the gaps to be filled in. I will also keep you up to date on her repatriation and subsequent restoration, although this will take some time to complete.

 



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Advance - Runaway Quickly , Runaway Quickly



Replies:
Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 04 January 2007 at 6:33pm

A couple of shots of her recent move;

 

 

 



Posted By: johnk
Date Posted: 06 January 2007 at 10:12pm

Hi there,

 

Just seen the post re Fleetwood, well done! I look forward to seeing the updates on her return to UK etc, will that be via transport or under her own steam? if you are in the river Medway area, think of Chatham Marina, do call in advance, and I would love to sort a visiting berth, sorry I can't offer it free, would get the sack!, all the best,

 

John  



Posted By: a76njk
Date Posted: 07 January 2007 at 12:36pm
Congratulations on your purchase d-zine.

I wonder if you could help me. 2751 is about to be removed from her floating birth and taken ashore, but I am unable to give the hoist operator an accurate weight.

 I see that one of your photos show 2753 ashore so hopefully you will have the weight from the crane operator. Did you use a two or four strop harness for the lift?  What is the current internal fit i.e. engines, gear boxes, fuel tanks etc so that I can offer the boat yard an indication of the weight they can expect to lift.
Thanks for your help.
A76NJK


Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 07 January 2007 at 7:21pm

Hi a76njk,

I was not present when Flywood was lifted out, however Christian was and he may be able to fill in any gaps in my reply.

Flywood has no engines,fueltanks,mast and furniture type fixtures.

She does retain the props,shafts,V drives, forward heads and bulkheads etc.

She has a quantity of materials and parts within the hull. The bulkhead between the engine room and fual tank space has been partially removed as has the bulkhead between the fuel tank space and the sickbay, all other bulkheads remain in situ.

I will post photos of her interior as soon as I have reduced them to 50k.

According to official documentation dated July 1963 the following should be correct for the boat when in service.

REGISTERED TONNAGE

Gross        64.89 tons

Nett         34 .15 tons

DISPLACEMENT

Light          25.68 tons

Loaded       34.62 tons

Maximum     44.67 tons

I would assume that the light displacement would be a good starting place, deduct RR Sea Griffons, tanks etc and add fitting out additional to original bulkheads,fixtures and fittings.

I think that we decided that Flywood was about 12 tons as she was only drawing a couple of inches of water at the transom. She was lifted from the water using the quayside crane in the picture using a spreader and 2 straps (this resulted in minor damage to the chin strakes) which were located over the bulkheads to give maximum rigidity to the hull. She was then lowered onto the cradle where four straps were used (a better solution if you can manage it) and she was moved to the correct place on the quay where she is currently secured. In an ideal world you should try to pack out around the chin to spread the load, I had considered trying to fabricate mini cradles for the bearing points but I had no time.

As I say Christian may be able to elaborate and or correct what I have said.

Would it be possible for you or your friend to photograph the event may be to post on the forum.

I will post the interior images, PM me if you want to discuss further.

Regards



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Advance - Runaway Quickly , Runaway Quickly


Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 08 January 2007 at 8:13am

Hi a76njk,

I have pinched the following images of Flywoods interior from Christians post in the "BOAT SHARE" topic.

This image shows the Mess Cabin looking through to the forepeak from the Sickbay Cabin.

 

 

This shows the Sickbay looking forward from the Fuel tank space.

 

 

Engine room looking forward from the aft steering position showing the V drives in situ.

I will add images taken on my last visit ASAP.

Regards



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Advance - Runaway Quickly , Runaway Quickly


Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 08 January 2007 at 4:20pm

Hi a76njk,

Additional photographs of the interior taken November 2006.

View of the sickbay looking aft and towards the port side of the boat.The bulkhead between the sick bay and the Fuel tank space is partly removed and there is an opening between the fuel tank space and the engine room.




Forward mess cabin looking at the forepeak bulkhead and w.c beyond.





Sickbay looking aft towards the Fuel tank bay and beyond to the engine room. The stairs come down into the former fuel tank space with a fair section of the bulkhead seperating the sick bay being removed. Originally the only access to the fuel tank space was from the main deck via removable deck sections. Access to the engine room was from the rear deck via a covered hatch.






Sickbay looking towards the starboard showing large work bench fitted I guess when Flywood was a paint store.







Engine room looking aft to the steering compartment. Note engine bearers and exhaust route through rear bulkhead.



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Advance - Runaway Quickly , Runaway Quickly


Posted By: a76njk
Date Posted: 08 January 2007 at 10:50pm
Thanks d-zine, thats a great help for my calcs.

2751 has a pair of cummins 215 hp v6 Diesels plus gear and is fitted out quite comfortably within including washer/dryer, fridge freezer, central heating with diesel fuelled combination boiler, various bunks and two wood burning stoves! One in the wheel house, the other in the saloon below, formerly the sick bay.

I reckon that 26 tons plus three tons of other fixtures and fittings would be a fairly accurate top end guesstimate for planning purposes. So around thirty tons should allow a margin of error.

After leaving her current location, I intend to position 2751 on a drying slip in Portsmouth to check the condition of the copper sheathing below the water line before motoring over to Guernsey for a full refit. If all is well below the water as it is above, then we will set off soon after to Guernsey.

I presume you have intention to re-engine 2753. If so, I have some good leads on Detroit Diesels located in the U.S. With the £/$ rate at around  1 to 2 they are reasonably priced when rebuilt and zero houred. They are two strokes and so are easy to maintain as opposed to the latest generation engines that require specialist engineering.

They are a bit more thirsty, however they are hugely cheaper (about one quarter the price) than equivalent H.P Cats for example to purchase.

Have loads of pictures but as yet seem unable to post to the forum. When I work out how to do it, look out!
Once more thanks for your help.

A76NJK





Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 26 January 2007 at 8:22am

The following drawing has been copied from the builders general arrangment plan dated 1956.

This drawing was for the Mark II ie 2755-2762 but does not show the raised engine room cover which I believed to be standard on the Mark II's and not on the Ia's and Ib's.

I am afraid that quite a lot of the detail has been lost in reducing to 50k.

 



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Advance - Runaway Quickly , Runaway Quickly


Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 06 February 2007 at 1:19pm
Another drawing has been copied from the builders general arrangment plans dated 1956.
This shows the deck arrangment, note the engine room hatch facing aft because of the flush engine room roof. On MkII's the raised engine room roof required the hatch to face to the port side.


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Advance - Runaway Quickly , Runaway Quickly


Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 06 February 2007 at 1:49pm
Hi,

These two photographs were scanned from articles passed on by Christian and show 2753 as she was at the builders yard prior to commisioning.


Starboard Bow.




Rear Deck Showing flush engine cover and rear facing engine room hatch.



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Advance - Runaway Quickly , Runaway Quickly


Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 09 February 2007 at 4:59pm
Hi,

For comparison we have photographs of 2753's Wheelhouse when she was commissioned and again as she is know.

I suppose the main difference is the change from three engines to two engines.


Circa 1956



Circa 2006'ish




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Advance - Runaway Quickly , Runaway Quickly


Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 09 February 2007 at 5:36pm

Hi d-zine, just going through some photos and noticed Flywood's props seem to be right-hand whereas they had left-hand props in service. She ran Packards after the Griffons were removed, would this account for this? Perhaps Pioneer can enlighten us. 

 



Posted By: Pioneer
Date Posted: 09 February 2007 at 5:57pm

Not having been down an Engine Room of these beautiful craft I would not know whether the Vdrives were on all Engines. I do know that the Griffon had the same rotation as the Packard/Merlin so if there were 3 V drives then the Props would all be Right Handed as per the Gay class.

(Ithink!!!)



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Pioneer - Forum Moderator


Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 09 February 2007 at 8:39pm

Christian and Pioneer,

The following extract from http://www.spitfiresociety.demon.co.uk - http://www.spitfiresociety.demon.co.uk   confirms that the Merlin and the Griffon did infact rotate in opposite direction. My stepfather flew Spitfires with Merlin engines and I recall that he said the plane would pull to the right on takeoff which would suggest that the engine rotated clockwise when viewed from the cockpit. Interestingly it would appear that the Griffon was changed to rotate in the same direction as the Napier aero engine so does that mean that the original Napier Sealions rotated the opposite direction to Flywood's current prop set up as well?

The first Griffon was built in 1934, and was effectively a derated engine of "R"-type, as was used in the Schneider- Trophy winning Supermarine S6 aircraft. As such it was a V12 liquid-cooled engine of 37 litres swept volume. Much of the design philosophy for the Griffon was to keep the overall dimensions close to those of the Merlins, to allow interchangeability. It is unfortunate that this engine was never developed to the degree that the Merlin was, and never exceeded it in overall power development. The major differences for the pilot was a less-smoothly running engine and one that rotated the propellor the opposite way to the Merlin. The standard anti- torque actions applied at takeoff power also needed to be the opposite way round to prevent a rapid departure off the side of the runway! This resulted from a decision by a committee of The Society of British Aircraft Constructors to aim for a "universal powerplant". The rationale was that any aircraft with a powerplant of around 2000HP should be able to have virtually any available comparable engine replaced should the original fail. Consequently direction of rotation of the Griffon had to change to match the engines of Bristol, Napier and Armstrong-Siddley (the Merlin, which was in widespread use at that time, especially by the USA- whose aero engines all turned the same way as the Merlin- stayed as it was). The cylinder firing order was changed to produce less resonance in the crankshaft and reduce the risk of failure. By June 1940 the Griffon II was rated at 1720HP with 1495HP at 14 500 feet. The First Griffon-powered production Spitfires were the Mk XII with a 1815HP Griffon VI. All Griffons had a Coffman cartridge starter.

So now the Questions:

  1. What size props are currently fitted to 2753?
  2. Where do they come from?
  3. Are the V-Drives just that and not subject to direction of rotation or are they proper gearboxes matched to the direction of rotation.
  4. When was 2753 re engined and by whom?
  5. Was she re engined with Merlins or were they the Packard V12's that predate the Packard Merlins?

I would be interested in finding out more about her post service history in particular her smuggling. When last in Gibraltar I spoke with a Royal Navy officer who quite clearly remembers her from the early to mid 1970's.

Christian, I don't know whether you would be able to check but any identifying marks on the Props and Gearboxes would be very useful in sizing for the engines and or replacement gearboxes.



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Advance - Runaway Quickly , Runaway Quickly


Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 09 February 2007 at 8:59pm

Hi,

Photographs of the Rolls Royce Sea Griffon installation on a MkII Rttl.

I cannot remember where the images came from but they could be

from 2756 when stationed at Ghan.

 

 

 

 



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Advance - Runaway Quickly , Runaway Quickly


Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 09 February 2007 at 9:03pm

And another looking towards the Transom.

 



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Advance - Runaway Quickly , Runaway Quickly


Posted By: Pioneer
Date Posted: 09 February 2007 at 10:09pm

Hello d-zine

I do stand corrected re the Rotation - I was basing my assumption on reading the original script of Saro News - the in house magazine of Messrs Saunders Roe - it was an article on the early Bras-d'or of the RCN - in that it stated that it was powered by 2 'handed' Sea Griffons from that I assumed (quite wrongly it seems) that they were mated through gearing only. Thank you for putting me right

Regards



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Pioneer - Forum Moderator


Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 09 February 2007 at 10:12pm

Hi d-zine

Your pics are from Servicepals, this is the third in the series;

Referring to your post elsewhere, you mention there were 21 of the Vosper design RTTLs, I make it 20- are you perhaps counting 2762E and 2772/2772E as different boats? Bear in mind she was re-numbered after her conversion from all aluminium to composite as one of the Krogerwerft D-Boats was numbered 2762. I think all the surviving boats are mentioned on this forum (2748,51,53,57,58,68,70 and 71). I'll check the props for markings when I'm next up the mole.

B Rgds,

Christian.  



Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 09 February 2007 at 11:33pm

Hi Christian,

I was basing it on the following production:

  • MK Ia's  -2747,2748,2749,2750
  • MK I b's -2751,2752,2753,2754,2755
  • MK II's   -2756,2757,2758,2759,2760,2761,2762E
  • MKII's    -2767,2768,2769,2770,2771,2772E

BOLD INDICATES KNOWN/SUSPECTED SURVIVORS

I make this 21 units although for a while I thought it was 22 because I thought 2762E and 2772E were different boats.

Is there anyway of confirming the condition and location of 2768 and 2770.

Any information would be welcome.



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Advance - Runaway Quickly , Runaway Quickly


Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 10 February 2007 at 12:57pm

Hi d-zine

I'm too young for these senior moments. "My" books are all in Dad's library in Spain so all I had to go on was my collection of scrounged photos, which I thought was only missing one boat (2771) but it seems I'm missing 2767 too! Also, I thought (from memory) that there were 6 Krogerwerfts but of course there were only 5 (2762-66).

2768 (C68) is in a compound at Malta, original but in very bad shape as far as I know (as is the hull of 2771 (C71)).

2770 (Osprey) seems OK and is photographed in her current location elsewhere on the forum.

Rgds, Christian.   



Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 19 February 2007 at 3:31pm
Hi Christian,

At last I understand about the renumbering of 2762E too 2772E. I had wondered why there was a 5 number gap between 2761 and 2767.



Would you be able to provide a little more information about these craft?



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Advance - Runaway Quickly , Runaway Quickly


Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 19 February 2007 at 5:07pm

Hi d-zine

From the Beardow bible "Sailors in the RAF";

"For a period between 1955 and 1961 the RAF operated five unusual boats in Germany. Boats 2762-6 were known only as "D-Boats".These German built 96 ft launches were of welded steel construction with twin Maybach diesel engines. The design was very similar to the compromise round bilge shape of the wartime E-Boats, with the result that the D-Boats were both swift and sea-kindly. They were located at List on the German island of Sylt off the Danish coast and were engaged in the principal tasks of range safety,stand-by flying and weather reporting for the RAF station at nearby Westerland .They were handed over to the new Luftwaffe in 1961." 

 

2 were also operated by the South African air force, these were both recently lost whilst in private hands (driven onto rocks);

 

Picture from brokerage website, 2005.

2 of the RAF D-Boats were caught smuggling by the Spanish Customs some years ago, one of which was used by them as a cutter;

 

Magnificent picture from my friend Jesus.

Regards,

Christian.



Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 21 February 2007 at 9:27pm

Christian,

I think that the dark hull and lighter upperworks make D2762 look much more slender than the later all grey ASR boats from South Africa.

 



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Advance - Runaway Quickly , Runaway Quickly


Posted By: tony
Date Posted: 11 April 2007 at 9:23am

Does anyone have any information on Rolls Royce Marine engines such as the "Sea Griffon", marine version of the Merlin and perhaps the V8 diesel "DV8"?

No info in Australia that I can find. Can share data and images of many WW2 petrol marine engines, Hall Scott, Kermath and Packard. Would very much like to learn about the Rolls emgine.,

Thanks

Tony



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tony


Posted By: rafwebfoot
Date Posted: 17 May 2007 at 11:26pm
The round bilge 'D' boats were not all steel vessels but of double skinned mahogany bolted to steel frames and keel.  The inner skin was diagonal with the outer skin laid horizontal.  The deck was steel with the fore deck planked.  The superstructure was fabricated from steel using snap head rivets. The boats were powered by twin Maybach MD655, V12 diesels giving a top speed of 30 knots and a range of 600 miles at 25 knots.All were built by Krogerwerft at Rendsburg.

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FAIR WINDS AND A FAVOURABLE TIDE
Donald


Posted By: Liberty12
Date Posted: 27 May 2007 at 9:07pm

Not a BMPT member I'm afraid (hiss) but interested in marine and tank derivatives of aero engines. I made an enquiry about Sea Griffon and Marine Merlin engines with the RR Heritage Trust at Derby 3 years ago and was told that total despatch of marine Merlin was 107 engines between May '38 and August '41. Total Sea-Griffons despatched was 49 between April '56 and December '59.

Made a quick count up with Clive Frampton (at Marchwood) using the RAF 'Craft' books a couple of years ago and concluded there had been 14 RTTL's built/fitted with Griffons. Each engine was changed at approx. 3 months, i.e an overnight engine change every 6 weeks, the engines being sent up to RR Hillington, Glasgow, for overhaul. Clive, having worked with them,  knows more about these units than anyone I've found in RR. 

Tony, I have manuals for some Petrol 12's including Merlin, Griffon, Isotta Fraschini, Thornycroft, Lion & Packard. What sort of info are you looking for - technical data, arrangement drawings ? 

RAF Hendon museum have 'AP 4522B' (air publication) for the'68 ft. Rescue/Target Towing Launch, Mk. 1B and Mk. 2'. Lots of really nice drawings including engine room - must have driven someone ga-ga producing them.  

I've not left my e-mail as I'm changing it in the next couple of weeks.

Jamie.  Bristol U.K



Posted By: tony
Date Posted: 28 May 2007 at 12:51am

oThanks for the e-mail Jamie,

I too have a passion for pretrol engines, mainly v12s that powered any patrol, torpedo and mine sweepers, as well as the air and tank diriviyives.

Have collected much material over the years from books and net.

Am happy to share, just tell me if you require something. I too have spoken to Clive, and very knowledgable and helpful fellow.

Would love to get info and general arangement images and drawings for the Sea Merlin and any other (Thorycroft)etc.

my pet engine is the Hall Scott Defender V12, the supercharged and non supercharged ones. Do you have any info on these?

Am just departing on a school retreat with my students, will be back on 30th, would love to hear from you again.

 

Tony

mailto:maxfield.tony@trinity.wa.edu.au - maxfield.tony@trinity.wa.edu.au



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tony


Posted By: Liberty12
Date Posted: 28 May 2007 at 12:44pm

RTTL/Sea Griffon;  The Air Publication for the 68' RTTL states that the props are 33", 3 bladed 'N.A.B' (?), left-hand. This publication also covers the v-drive unit. Air publication A.P4561A covers engine and gearbox. Crankshaft rotation is 'anti-clockwise viewed from the drive end'. I will try to get the hang of downloading some illustrations.

Tony. You may have found this already but a book on the history of Hall-Scott was recently published by 'SAE International'. ISBN 978-0-7680-1660-4. B&W only but 400 pages A5 size hardback. Covers the full history including trucks buses etc plus marine and aero engines. Probably rather 'dry' for most but essential for a 'Hall Scott' nut ! I have an Instruction Manual (operation maintenance parts book) for the Hall-Scott Defender as supplied on 'Lend-Lease' (found this in the U.K). I'm particularly interested in marine and tank Liberty information.

There is some account of the Marine Merlin (& Napier Sea Lion) development in 'Fast Boats and Flying Boats', the biography of Hubert Scott-Paine by Adrian Rance, plus his part in the Packard 4M2500. Also on Packard is Bob Neal's 'Master Motor Builders', which sees the 4M2500 story from 'the other side'.  

There is some account (though not enough) of the Napier Sea Lion and Deltic engines in Alan Vessey's new book 'By Precision into Power', ISBN 978-0-7524-3888-7. Softback, 256 pages.

The Sea Lion was not, apparently, the smoothest running engine.  The father of a friend parachuted into the sea from a Lancaster in the war and was both reassured and alarmed by the popping and banging from the Lion powered boat that he hoped wouldn't conk-out before it reached him ! Chris Williams, from Wolverhampton, runs a Lion powered Bentley at vintage race meetings during the year. The backfiring as he approaches a bend has been described as like the noise of a 'batallion of machine gunners' !

Have been going through 1920's copies of 'The Motor Boat'. Some really interesting engines feature in there - most of the WW1 aero engines such as RR Eagle, Falcon and Hawk + Sunbeams, Hispano Suiza etc. Also the Tylor, Daimler sleeve valve and Ricardo tank engines. The Eagles were fitted in 'Sea Sleds' built by the Grahame-White company. Does anyone know anything about these? Have any survived ?

 



Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 28 May 2007 at 1:13pm
Nickel Aluminium Bronze.


Posted By: tony
Date Posted: 29 May 2007 at 8:05am

Thanks for info RE. books. Robert Neal contacted earlier this about information on liberty engines, marine mainly as he is writing a book about them. I supplied him some sales advertisments, I think he already had most of what I sent.

I have since found some Australian v12 Liberty shots. Will attach some images for you, let me know if you have them and if you would like more.

Tony

 

 



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tony


Posted By: Liberty12
Date Posted: 31 May 2007 at 10:16pm

V-drive illustration from AP4522B.



Posted By: Liberty12
Date Posted: 31 May 2007 at 10:41pm

Engine installation - fuel system. AP4522B. Sorry about the resolution - server won't accept it any higher...struggling with the scanner, or it could be me. Will attempt some engine photos later. 

Tony, thanks for the Liberty info. Most of what I've found has also been destined for Bob Neal ! -small world. Missing is early Nuffield Liberty information - anything on N.L 1's +2's (fitted in A13 cruiser tanks).  



Posted By: tony
Date Posted: 05 June 2007 at 1:18am

 

Great Drawings,

Thanks very much, I like to study these. They were a very compact set up, did the craft suffer from being tail/sterm heavy as all weight seems close to the transom.

Do do have any more Sea Griffon general drawings or images that you can send me please?

Would you like any Liberty stuff that I have collected?

Tony



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tony


Posted By: Liberty12
Date Posted: 06 June 2007 at 12:01am

2 photos of Sea Griffon that was on loan to BMPT before the loss of Husbands Yard. In photo, the Vosper sea water pump has been temporarily removed and the flange covered with a blue cloth. The grey lever (not the correct one) is located in the manual engagement for 'Ahead' gear (normally oil pressure controlled). The 'white' colour of the air intake is actually the true colour of the painted parts of the engine. The yellow colour comes from the laquer applied over the top. Yellow paint is NOT used! Most of the metalwork is steel but the laquer gives it a brass appearance. 

I understand from Clive Frampton that the gearbox was built by Mathway, until recently a part of Rolls Royce. Also that the company was originally bought by RR during the contract to build the gearboxes for the Sea Griffon. The original cost per gearbox was around £100,000.

The other 2 illustrations are from AP4561a (vol 1).

Tony - thanks for the offer of Liberty info. Will e-mail you direct to make that easier.



Posted By: tramontana
Date Posted: 06 June 2007 at 6:29am
My understanding is that it was problems with the g/boxes that caused the delay in the fitting of the Griffons to R.A.F. launches, the high price will have been because of the developement cost's, I watched 4 boxes go for peanuts when 2772E  it's equipment and spares were auctioned off, I think the Griffon's were sold off for Tractor Pulling use. I have now found out that "2772E" at one time appeared to have been fitted with "sprint" engines when Vosper showcased her. 


Posted By: rafwebfoot
Date Posted: 06 June 2007 at 6:40am

Hi Tony,

The RTTLs did trim slightly to the stern, and it was always reckoned that should they founder, they would sink stern first.  This myth was dispelled when 2754 went down in the Med bow first after being holed in the sickbay.

As for Mathway gearboxes, they were standard fit in all R/R powered RAF marine craft with the exception of Thornycrofts which were trialled for a short time in Pinnace 1381E and RSL 1663E. They were not a sucess and were removed, the boats reverted to standard numbers of 1381 and 1663.

 

Regards



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FAIR WINDS AND A FAVOURABLE TIDE
Donald


Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 06 June 2007 at 8:40am
Tony- Liberty's diagram shows the engine room and tank space, aft of these compartments was another containing the tiller quadrants and target towing equipment, so the weight wasn't quite as far back as you imagine.


Posted By: tony
Date Posted: 06 June 2007 at 9:57am

Thanks for all replies,

Hi Christian, long time no hear. Am posting a couple of Islander (Fairmile b) images for you, hope this is ok in this forum.

After all of that, image is too big, can't upload! Will have to work out how to make it smaller.

Tony



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tony


Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 06 June 2007 at 10:20am

Thanks Tony, there's a better place to put these pictures. Go to Where Are Those Boats Now, select All (rather than just the last 6 months) on the drop down menu, then go to page 7 of 9 and look for MLs in Australia etc.

Sadly Islander ex ML 826 was recently (within the last few years) lost during a sea voyage, thankfully with no loss of life, after striking rocks.



Posted By: tony
Date Posted: 07 June 2007 at 1:15am

Yes the Islander foundered much to my disappointment, I grew up on her.

How did you get to hear of it?

Tony



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tony


Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 07 June 2007 at 1:01pm
Hi Tony
 
Theres a snippet of info on a page called The Cargo Letter on a website called www.cargolaw.com which relates to the demise of Princess Royal ex Rottnest Islander ex Islander ex ML 826 (by elimination as of the 4 present in Australia in 1997 she's the only one not accounted for now).
The snippet states that on Friday July 27th 2001 a Fairmile motor launch crewed by 4 struck a submerged object and sank off the East Coast at Maroubra close to Sydney whilst en-route to Eden NSW.


Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 18 June 2007 at 9:41pm

Workshop manual for Ford V8 marinised by Vosper, like the silent running engines on the Vosper MTBs;

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Operation-Manual-for-Vosper-V8-Marine-Engine-1930s_W0QQitemZ330133054469QQihZ014QQcategoryZ121901QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Operation-Manual-for-Vosper-V8-Marine- Engine-1930s_W0QQitemZ330133054469QQihZ014QQcategoryZ121901Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem



Posted By: barnacle
Date Posted: 16 July 2007 at 12:37am
Originally posted by rafwebfoot rafwebfoot wrote:

The RTTLs did trim slightly to the stern, and it was always reckoned that should they founder, they would sink stern first.  This myth was dispelled when 2754 went down in the Med bow first after being holed in the sickbay.



just to correct this slightly.... 2754 was holed in the bow.. actually port side of the fo'c'sle whilst running in a following sea, the initial rush of seawater took away the bulkhead between the fo'c'sle and sickbay.
When the RN arrived on site, no tug being available from the dockyard on a saturday evening, she was as in the pictures, bow down...and they attempted to tow her stern first. Almost immediately the aft peak filled and the bulkhead between there and the engine room gave up the ghost... she then settled level for a while before finally going under.
Im trying desperately to remember the name of the frigate that attempted to tow her.. no mean task to round up a crew from all over the Rock on a saturday evening.. I know we held a party for them in the Sailing Club a few nights later


Posted By: tony
Date Posted: 16 July 2007 at 12:26pm

Thanks for the info on 2754 sinking. You mentioned pictures of her bow down, you you have a copy of these that you could e-mail me please?

Could I trouble you for the images that you have? Or for that matter and Fairmile images, particularly of engine room. Am more than happy to share the many images that I have that you may like.

You sound knowledgable about the Bs, did you have much to do with them?

Tony.

Below is a recent image of dad and I, dad is holding a "Hall Scott" V12 piston, I have the oil sump. May be too big to upload, will try and reduce.



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tony


Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 16 July 2007 at 1:07pm
Hi Tony,

This image of 2754's sinking was sourced from the web, one of the other members will probably be able to tell you which site it is on.

Bow down so pre tow?

Looking at the watertight bulkheads in Flywood they do not appear too substantial so I can understand why they failed given the circumstances.




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Advance - Runaway Quickly , Runaway Quickly


Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 16 July 2007 at 4:07pm

Hi Barnacle

"Im trying desperately to remember the name of the frigate that attempted to tow her.."

From Beardow's book, 'twas HMS Keppel.

  http://www.navyphotos.co.uk/keppel%20fgt.htm - http://www.navyphotos.co.uk/keppel%20fgt.htm



Posted By: barnacle
Date Posted: 16 July 2007 at 8:49pm
Thanks for that Christian... i knew it was either Keppel or Ashanti (i don't know why that names stuck in my head!!)

I can see i'll have to do some scanning.. the pic that d-zine posted is the one i sent to the RAF Marine Craft website

http://www.geocities.com/aj_p_joyce/ - www.geocities.com/aj_p_joyce/

(sorry, i cant seem to get the hyperlink option to work) theres loads of RTTL pics on that site

d-zine.... yes, thats a pre-tow pic... all the personnel on deck are RN.. 54's crew were either by then on the Greek freighter that gave assistance or on the Keppel. That pic was taken from the Keppel..


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Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 17 July 2007 at 2:53pm
Hi All,

I have attached a couple of images of 2753's V-Drives which are still in situ. Although the drives are missing their oil lines and Heat exchanger/Oil coolers the Stbd unit is still free and the prop can be turned without too much effort. The Port unit is solid although I have not proved conclusively that it is the v-drive it could be the bearings on the prop shaft.

For those of you who served on the RTTL's how difficult is it to service/overhaul one of these  units, is it beyond the abilities of an automotive or heavy plant shop?

Again how much engine power would one of these units absorb as part of the transmission system?

I would like if possible to retain the v-drives with the interim engines which are quite low on power approx 140bhp with 2:1 boxes to give a final drive of over 3:1 with the existing props.

What do you think?







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Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 17 July 2007 at 3:43pm
Hi,

In the above image of the Starboard V-drive you can see to the bottom left 4 end covers. I did not make the connection at the time but I believe that these are from the combined water and oil main heat exchangers for the engine which are located beneath the center of the engine room floor.
These are still in situ, I have not checked for condition. Would these units have had removable tube stacks/cores, I wonder if they could be made serviceable again.



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Posted By: Pioneer
Date Posted: 17 July 2007 at 3:50pm

I fixed your link 'Barnacle' - sometimes it just needs the http bit removed

Regards

Ted



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Pioneer - Forum Moderator


Posted By: barnacle
Date Posted: 17 July 2007 at 7:46pm
Thanks for that Ted... (i wonder if i know you...hmmm)

with all this talk of the main engines in these beasts... no one has mentioned the beautiful little generators they used to have. The good old Norman Lyon T600. so easy to kick into life and quiet as a mouse... lovely lil engines...

as opposed to the Cov Vic AD3's in the pinnaces... noisy, nasty to start and damn near shook the boat to pieces, you could actually see the ripples around the boat in flat calm water...

All i can remember of the target towing winch was what we were told on the Training Flight.. Ford, 9hp, Industrial..... oh, and that the junior Eng had to wear breathing gear when operating it because of the fumes from the 4 main engine exhausts curling back over the transom and filling the winch house up..




Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 21 July 2007 at 9:51pm
Hi,

Flywood ashore 2 weeks ago, looks even bigger out of the water than in.

The planking above the waterline has opened up to between 5 and 10mm although I think this has been the case for some time given the climate.

Notice below the chine the triple planking is tight and the paint is good, maybe the fact that it is not subject to direct sunlight and the full force of heat is the reason.

As a note these boats were built double diagonal but as a result of strain upon the hull due to the props not being handed the hull was increased to triple diagonal beneath the chine (ref rafwebfoot).

She is certainly extremely solid beneath the chine.




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Posted By: northeastuser
Date Posted: 21 July 2007 at 11:28pm
nice looking vessel there.hope your proud of her. What do you intend to do about the topsides?How about sinking her in harbour for a few months !I seem to remember the royal navy used to do that in the old days of sailing warships.

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Posted By: barnacle
Date Posted: 21 July 2007 at 11:52pm
Originally posted by d-zine d-zine wrote:

looks even bigger out of the water than in.


y'know, i remember seeing '57 out of the water for the first time.. she was on her cradle outside the hanger at Batten. I thought to myself... that is one serious chunk of woodwork!!

I see you have '53 up on blocks rather than a cradle, a cradle would add a couple of feet higher off the floor to the deck i reckon


Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 22 July 2007 at 10:33am
Hi northeastuser,

There are two options under consideration with regard to the topside planking.

When shes back in the water in the Med I will fix Hessian to the edge of the deck and allow it to hang into the water. Capillary action would see to the Hessian taking up water, then the sun would heat up the Hessian and the relative humidity behind would increase and hopefully be absorbed by the dry timbers. A secondary benefit would be that the direct sunlight would be stopped from reaching the hull. Of course she will look like a mobile shanty town so she won't be at all popular among the white plastics.

The second option is that upon return to the UK the climate the timbers will take up the moisture due to our less than dry atmosphere. The problem with this is to ensure not to much fresh water ingress through the hull and more likely the decks.

I guess option 1 is the way to go.By the way I cannot take credit for the idea it comes from other more knowledgeable forum members.






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Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 22 July 2007 at 10:56am
Hi,

I think on my next trip I will bring a moisture meter and record the moister level in the timbers and their sizes. Then when the timber has taken up I will record again.

As the boats were built in the UK then the timbers were acclimitatized to our climate so service anywhere warmer would result in shrinkage. What did the RAF do when the boats were in service in the Med,Barhein and Gan to stop or at least control shrinkage?


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Posted By: northeastuser
Date Posted: 22 July 2007 at 11:10am

So bearing in mind these vessels are riveted along the edge of the planks perhaps you may have been told the answer to a question Iím curious about.

Once they get to a certain age and you get this type of drying out and the planks shrink. Well doesnít that mean the rivets have been pulled by about half the distance of the gap. E.G if you have a 10mm gap then the rivets along the adjoining planks have been pulled sideways (or broke/twisted) by about 5 mm.

So if you do get the planks to take back up, wont that mean they will be lose now? or at least start to work when at sea. Even if she looks and sounds tight can you trust those rivets?

So whatís the plan? Re-rivet between the original rivets?replace every second plank?



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Posted By: clive
Date Posted: 22 July 2007 at 11:14am

Hi Darren,

 I recon the answer to your question could be to take them out in rough seas.

p.s. I like the paint, she looks ready for a dip!



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masbie something in the water.   www.freewebs.com/masb32/


Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 22 July 2007 at 11:19am
Hi Clive,

Guess she looks like an inside out swimming pool.


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Posted By: clive
Date Posted: 22 July 2007 at 11:33am
 Good idea.

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masbie something in the water.   www.freewebs.com/masb32/


Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 22 July 2007 at 12:32pm
Hi Barnacle,

Just to tidy things up and because I like pictures I have attached an Image of HMS KEPPEL who was instrumental in the attempted rescue of 2754 as advised by yourself.





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Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 22 July 2007 at 12:51pm
Hi again,

Another photo from 2 weeks ago taken from the Starboard Bow.






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Posted By: barnacle
Date Posted: 23 July 2007 at 12:23am
if i remember correctly, the 2 layers of the hull planking had a sandwich of white lead paste and calico fabric between them didnt they?

ahhh The Keppel, thats the beast... thanks for that d-zine




Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 23 July 2007 at 7:39am
Barnacle,

You can still see the calico when the joints are raked out, it no longer serves as a water impermeable barrier as you can now see through from the inside of the hull i.e pin pricks of light at some points where the planking crosses.


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Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 29 July 2007 at 12:26am

Hi NEU,

Thinking about your comment on the shrinkage of the planks, which is why it has taken me so long to reply. You got me worried you silly s'x'd.

If the planks are 150mm wide and the joints are nominally 3-5mm then shrinkage is max 5% or 2.5mm from either side. As I have seen no sign of tearing or elongation of the fixing holes within the planks I am going to assume as it should be that this sort of movement was accomodated for in the original design and detailing of these boats.

 

If I am wrong then she won't be Flywood she will be lots of bits of wood floating in the overall shape of a boat. Time will tell.

RAFWEBFOOT, what was the RAF line as regards operating these boats in a hot climate to manage shrinkage within the timber, were they kept moist or were they allowed to dry and then refered to as 67ft RTTL's?



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Posted By: northeastuser
Date Posted: 29 July 2007 at 12:44am

yes thinking about it myself I think your probibly right.sorry.

joints at 3.5 mm? I thought these things were planked up tight?



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Posted By: dgray
Date Posted: 29 July 2007 at 10:51am
Some planks on my ST  had dried out to 3 or 4mm last summer with no damage.  They closed up to about 1mm in the winter as the ambient humitity sorted it.  I'd hesitate to paint her if she's too dry as it may stop the timbers swelling. 


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Don


Only a number, not even a name. How shall posterity hear of thy fame?


Posted By: AndyS
Date Posted: 29 July 2007 at 7:39pm

Originally they were planked up tight over doped calico. Unfortunately over time the planks tend not to take up again so well so calking of some type will normally be required to fill the gaps and make the boat watertight.

Repeated cycling should be controlled if possible.

 

 

 



Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 01 August 2007 at 8:18am
Hi,

Just received the following image of 2753 in service out in Gibraltar between 72-74. The image is courtesy  of Paul Mason  and the Newhaven Local & Maritime History Museum.

If you look closely at the original photo you can just start to make out the planking.




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Posted By: northeastuser
Date Posted: 01 August 2007 at 10:17am
Very nice!

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Posted By: northeastuser
Date Posted: 09 September 2007 at 10:14pm
Hows things with flywood going D-zine?

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Posted By: skiggsie
Date Posted: 19 October 2007 at 2:53pm

Having searched for D2762 I have just found this site. My father, Charles Lawton, skippered this boat from Hurnam (?) Sylt between 1958-60. I have photos of the boat and German crew and some memories of sailing on her.

Dad was in the MCU from 39 until 63 and served in Japan, Ceylon, N Africa, Lyme Regis, Pembroke Dock and Holyhead that I can remember. Does anyone have any idea why he would have been in Japan (Miro and Sakai) 46-48? We were there as a family in Iwakuni. 



Posted By: Pioneer
Date Posted: 19 October 2007 at 7:35pm

Hello 'skiggsie'

Welcome aboard.

Although ex-RN myself - you will find that there are several RAF marine types who visit and contribute to this site and I am sure that your questions will get answered.

'46-'48 Japan was still very much reeling from the effects of the War of course, but I am sure that MCU's were established there to assist with the occupation and 're-culturing' by the Allies etc.

Can you 'Post' a couple of your pictures up here? - I'm sure that we all would appreciate some fresh shots.

Rgds



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Pioneer - Forum Moderator


Posted By: baxtercr
Date Posted: 15 July 2019 at 8:13pm
Hi.  I am looking for drawings of the D-Boats as used by the RAF.  2 of the boats were opperated by the SAAF in South Africa.
Our Museum has lost the plans / drawings and as a result I can't get any information.
I was requested by a ex navy member to build a 1/72 scale model of the SAAF P1551 (classification after the Navy took her over).
If anybody can help, especially drawings of the hull, I would be so grateful.
Thanks
Chris Baxter
www.baxmod.co.za


Posted By: Gary Douglas
Date Posted: 28 August 2019 at 6:17am

Hi Tony $ Christian

I read your posts way back in 2007 after my fathers navel group the Fairmile association (Australia) had given us this news via their monthly
newsletter called "Dits & Dahs". I bookmarked your posts as a reminder to where this vessel lays to rest.
I was glad to read that you had so many enjoyable trips aboard her Tony as my father, James Ernest Douglas Able Seaman S9141 served on her in Fremantle from 1943 to 1946, she was then known as ML 826.He had enlisted like so many as a 17 year old and was the Radar & Asdic operator.
Our dear father passed away on 22/07/2019 aged 92 yrs old and was the last surviving member of this vessel from WW2. He had many fond memories and some not so fond memories of her.
I know it was 12 years ago but I thank you for giving our family a little
history on her.

Regards Gary Douglas

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Gary Douglas



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