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MTB458

Printed From: BMPT Forum
Category: Boats (In alphabetical order)
Forum Name: Motor Torpedo Boats
Forum Description: Discussion on Motor Torpedo Boats
URL: http://www.bmpt.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=88
Printed Date: 24 November 2017 at 8:24pm


Topic: MTB458
Posted By: Joeblob
Subject: MTB458
Date Posted: 10 December 2005 at 2:41pm

 Hi

I am trying to trace the history of one of  my fathers old boats MTB 458 which was a British Power Boat and formed part of the 4th flotilla based at Lowestoft (HMS Mantis)

Any info greatly appreciated




Replies:
Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 07 April 2006 at 3:12pm

Hello Joeblob

MTB458 (now Mahaba) is on the River Itchen next to the Cobden Bridge between St Denys and Bitterne Triangle in the Southampton area.She is the one closest to the bridge in a bad state,there's another beside her (Sungo ex MTB486).There's a pic on the internet(google image) under "sunken houseboat" .Info is courtesy of Philip Simons.Let me know if you want a better pic taken 06/04/06 by Dominic Winsor the owner of the website with the pics.

Best regards

Christian



Posted By: Joeblob
Date Posted: 08 April 2006 at 1:39pm

Hi Christian

Thanks for the photo and info, any other pics would be greatly appreciated

                                     Joeblob



Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 08 April 2006 at 2:49pm

Hi Joeblob

Here's an aft view courtesy of Dominic Winsor,were you aware the boat had survived until now?Sadly it doesn't look as though she will last much longer,if you have the means to do so perhaps you can take her on as a restoration project.Suggest you contact Dominic via his website,he lives closeby and is helpful to the extreme.

Best Regards,

Christian

 



Posted By: rozm2
Date Posted: 26 June 2006 at 9:00pm
Is that part of the original superstructure poking through the front of that shed? What condition is this one in, better idea than the pinnace perhaps, and closer too! What's the story, has she been abandoned?


Posted By: a76njk
Date Posted: 27 June 2006 at 10:18am

Hello all,

The RTTL behind the MTB looks to be a fair bet for restoration as it looks lived in and appears to be afloat. MTB548 appears to down at the bow and low in the water so is probably full of water. What is the identity of the RTTL?

A76NJK



Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 27 June 2006 at 10:30am

Yes,original wheelhouse poking out on the sunken Mahaba.Boat behind is another 71.5ft MTB,called Sungo,see above posts.I wouldn't have thought she's available,she looks like someone's well looked after home.

Later edit;just seen http://www.canadiancoastalforces.com - www.canadiancoastalforces.com it seems Sungo's future is assured 



Posted By: rozm2
Date Posted: 27 June 2006 at 11:28am
Yes, the one behind would be like going up to someone and wanting to buy thier home, the one in front hoowever I doubt anyone attaches any real value to and is probably only home to a few sea creatures! What sort of state is it in, did it suddenly sink one day, or just gradually sink (ie big or little holes!). Is the complete wheelhouse there or just that front bit, does it have any shafts/engines/rudders/other original fittings inside, what type is she and what's her length? Any possiblity of a photo of what she should look like (annother boat of her class perhaps)?


Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 27 June 2006 at 11:51am
Hi-I don't see your location listed on the left hand side of your posts,but as you can see I'm in Gibraltar and hence probably further away.Would it not be possible for you to contact the local council to find out her ownership and whether they have any plans for her?Maybe a train journey to see her in the flesh?She is a British Power Boat Co 71.5ft MTB as mentioned above.  


Posted By: rozm2
Date Posted: 27 June 2006 at 11:55am
Well I live in southampton for part of the year and hence I could go an have a look when next down there. Would the council know who owns her do you think? The port authorities might, but then again in enquiring you may be opening a can of worms with referefance to unpaid fees etc? I've had a look on the net for info on the 71ft 6" BPC boats and haven't found a lot (though spent an hour or so on dgray's site, brilliant, had some fun with the jukebox too!) any chance of pointing me in the direction of some more info on them?


Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 28 June 2006 at 2:33pm

Hello rozm2

I have sent you a private message with the owner's name and last known address,I hope something may come of it.I shouldn't worry about cans of worms,it's better you know if she owes fees from the outset rather than this catching up with you at a later date,anyway I'd have thought that if you present the council with a valid case for her restoration as a vessel of national historic interest they'd let you off paying anything at all (maybe even make a contribution?!).

Best Regards,Christian.



Posted By: rozm2
Date Posted: 28 June 2006 at 3:36pm
Thanks Christian, sent a reply to you. I'd have thought that if any fees were due then they'd be able to sieze the vessel in return for unpaid fees and sell it for a pound or some token ammount and if you suggested that long term it would either mean she is restored or removed to be restored they'd be pleased, as oposed to the alternative which is her sitting on the bottom for the next few years untill they get round to disposing of her!? I'll walk over there when I'm next in southampton and take it from there, I may decide she looks like too much work but as I said in my reply at last she's got the superstructure as so many have lost and her sinking may just be as a result of abandonment and hence the normal seeping in of water has just built up and she's got to her current state?


Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 28 June 2006 at 7:09pm

Re more info,here's a pic and a plan.All the specs you could possibly desire are on the home page (click on the bmpt icon top left of page) under "Select a boat" and click on MGB81.



Posted By: rozm2
Date Posted: 28 June 2006 at 9:11pm

I thought perhaps the two were the same, as you say most of the specs are there, any chance of a higher res version of the two above pix, e-mail them direct to me, I'll pm you with my e-mail address. Would the superstrucure etc be the same as the MGB's and just the armaments changed or is the whole thing different but on the same hull. It's pretty handy being the same as MGB 81 since I saw her in the flesh about 2 months back when at Bucklers Hard, that'd be a sight to see her running!



Posted By: AndyS
Date Posted: 10 July 2006 at 11:52am
rozm2

There were very few of these boats exactly the same as their armament was continually changed and developed. There were also changes between deckhouse length and also the high and low chine versions.

Some of the differences are quite wel recorded in the historian's records.

Regards
AndyS


Posted By: Kax29
Date Posted: 13 July 2006 at 11:39am

I found some pictures of this "houseboat" online at http://www.flickr.mud.yahoo.com/search/?q=houseboat&w=67928846%40N00 - http://www.flickr.mud.yahoo.com/search/?q=houseboat&w=67 928846%40N00

I walk over Cobden Bridge pretty much every day and wanted to find out more about this boat. Thanks for this forum, it's amazing what information is out there if you look hard enough.  K.



Posted By: jimmy p
Date Posted: 10 January 2007 at 12:58pm

 Heres 458 from google earth.

 These two are a few hundred yards downstream next to the railway bridge. Look like mtb's but these were taken from 12miles up, if anyone's local could they have a look?

 



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A boat is a hole in the water surrounded by wood, into which one throws money


Posted By: jimmy p
Date Posted: 10 January 2007 at 1:03pm

 

 Forgot to add, these pics could be a couple of years old. Google earth not updated very often.

 cheers all



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A boat is a hole in the water surrounded by wood, into which one throws money


Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 10 January 2007 at 2:03pm
Dominic Winsor who supplied the original photo I posted of Mahaba said that a couple of these boats did look like MTBs too, but that the area they are in is closed to the public and he couldn't get close enough to snap them. I'm putting out feelers to see if anyone knows more.


Posted By: jimmy p
Date Posted: 10 January 2007 at 7:59pm
Anyone local with a boat, canoe ect who fancies a run past with a camera next time their out?

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A boat is a hole in the water surrounded by wood, into which one throws money


Posted By: S R Wilson
Date Posted: 11 January 2007 at 11:46am

Hi, Rozm2,

Just a note to try and help clear up any confusion re seizing and sale of goods to pay bills. Obviously what follows is in very general terms and needs to be tailored to fit individual situations but, in general terms a person or body which is owed money, the Creditor, for work or services  and who holds property of the person that owes the money, the Debtor, can if they so chose give notice to the debtor, in proper form. After the requisit period of time has elapsed then the creditor may sell the item held but they are under a duty to obtain the higest price possiable. This duty is usually discharged by selling at auction.

The Creditor will then deduct what he is owed plus the costs of sale from the proceeds of sale and account to the debtor for any balance. If the sale does not produce sufficent funds then the creditor can persue the debtor for the then otstanding balance using the usual methods, eg County Court summons etc.

Now the disclaimer!!!! You are dvised to take legal advice before taking or refraing from taking any steps as a result of anything you have read in this post.

Hope the above is of some assistance.



-------------
SRW
"Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy" WSC.



Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 11 January 2007 at 3:58pm

From Phil Simons;

Uppermost boat is Shearwater ex BPB 71.5ft MTB 477 ex MGB 158.

Bottom boat is Talisman ex BPB 71.5ft MTB 455 ex MGB 136.

The beamy hull above her is an ex Norwegian Nasty Class called Four Acres, ex Jo ex P 346.

So we definately need to persuade someone closeby to paddle over and take a few pictures! 



Posted By: jimmy p
Date Posted: 28 January 2007 at 2:15am

 Who do i talk to about aquiring 458??

 I know most people would call me mad but think on this. She sank last year as a result of taking water through her decks. Needs to dry out but prob not rotten. Anyone tell me who i need to talk to on this one? Rather see her restored than a curiosity for photographers when she's wrecked.

 Help me on this amigos??



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A boat is a hole in the water surrounded by wood, into which one throws money


Posted By: S R Wilson
Date Posted: 29 January 2007 at 11:14am

Jimmy,

Please have a look at the posts under HSL 145. Would be happy to see you there if you can make it.

Regards



-------------
SRW
"Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy" WSC.



Posted By: CCFT
Date Posted: 10 February 2007 at 3:21am

Toronto

9 Feb 07

 

Hello Gentlemen (Hello Christian),

 

I discovered your forum today via the Naval Museum of Manitoba discussion forum and was greatly interested in your discussions about MTB 458 and Sungo, not to mention MTBs 455 and 477.

 

I belong to a trust based in Toronto, Canada (the Canadian Coastal Forces Trust) whose specific aim is the preservation of the Sungo as we have positively identified her as the last Canadian MTB, 486, with the help of Philip Simons and John Lambert.  Her owners have agreed to sell her to us if we can raise sufficient funds.  486 was a part of the 29th (Canadian) MTB Flotilla, commanded by LtCdr C. Tony Law, and was in fact his command after his earlier boat, MTB 459 was damaged by enemy gunfire.

 

As a part of this endeavour, I visited MTBs 455/Talisman, 458/Mahaba, 477/Shearwater and 486/Sungo in Southampton, and MTBs 439/The Clive, 456/Nokomis, 481/Bimini, 487/Venture and 490/Laguna in Shoreham (all their owner were most welcoming and interested in my mission).  Needless to say, these are all British Powerboat Company 71.5’ MTBs (or converted MGBs), which were classified as “G Types” in the former RCN.  Other than MTB 439 which was commanded by Lt C.A. “Bones” Burk, RCNVR (who later commanded her sister, MTB 461 in the 29th Flotilla) and 458, which are both hulks, the remainder tend to be in good shape and even have many original bulkheads (477/Shearwater while well looked after, is heavily modified and only her hull is now original).  Unfortunately, 458 is a completely rotten hulk and too dangerous to even walk on, but she does appear to be the only one of the above mentioned that still has her original chartroom.  Philip tells me that she is probably still the legal property of the owner who allowed her to sink and rot.  Also, 439 is unsalvageable, now completely filled with earth to act as a non-floating quay.  Sadly, 481/Bimini may also be lost as her owners are upgrading to a larger steel hulled boat this summer, and if they cannot sell her, they shall have to break her up.

 

Two additional boats of this class that we were investigating were MTB 506/Ambra and Raia, in Malta, because we also wish to have a functional example of this class as a working museum ship, rather like the Americans have done with the Liberty Ship John Brown, but of course on a much smaller scale (one does have to admire the way the US protects their history).  Raia has since been sunk by her owners, Captain Morgan Tours, so we will never know her identity, and we have been offered 506/Ambra for free, if we will just take her away (which is ironic as they were asking $100 000 US just two years ago for each boat).  Unfortunately, it will cost us about $40 000 US to ship her across the Atlantic and we have nowhere to keep her in the UK until the money can be raised.  We also need to ascertain whether she could even be motored from Malta to England as we suspect that Captain Morgan have let her deteriorate.  Paradoxically, we may have to forgo on the offer of the free BPC MTB and watch 506/Ambra also scuttled.

 

There, in a nutshell, is where the CCFT stands in regard to these existing MTBs.  At least MGB 81 has been saved (and beautifully restored – I visited her also at the kind invitation of her owner, Robin Clabburn), but we will not stop until at least 486, and perhaps one other, is also preserved.

 



-------------
Lt(N) Nicholas CM Armstrong


Posted By: jimmy p
Date Posted: 10 February 2007 at 4:47am

 Hi CCFT

Anywhere in malta to keep her while you look?

 Let me know your progress & try to get Ambra a stay of execution.What a waste



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A boat is a hole in the water surrounded by wood, into which one throws money


Posted By: S R Wilson
Date Posted: 10 February 2007 at 4:04pm
Having read the above posts it is a crying shame that the history of Nations is being lost in this way. Surerly there are people out there who even if they don't want to or can't for whatever reason get their hands dirty have the money and National pride, to help ensure that these boats and others like them don't go down without a fight.No pun intended.

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SRW
"Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy" WSC.



Posted By: johnk
Date Posted: 10 February 2007 at 5:31pm

Hi All,

 

Just read the post ex Lt Armstrong, wrote elsewhere about Ship's Monthly article on Sungo/486. Very interesting and like Sentley I to am so fustrated that we are losing these craft, what a pity there is no where in Malta to keep hold of Ambra, really can't offer much in the way of ideas there, but... re the UK without saying at this stage I could do anything at all..if you private message me I might have some thoughts, sorry to be dense, but we are looking at around 70' aren't we? So glad you thought well of 81, indeed a great job done, would also as ever point to MTB 102 and Medusa, understand as ever running such vessels can be difficult but they prove not impossible and I come down on the side of the best thing is to run them if at all possible, only laying up if not. I wish you all the best with your efforts, and will watch for developements if you would be so kind as to keep us all updated.

Regards

 

John  



Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 10 February 2007 at 8:18pm

Hello Nicholas

Sad news indeed about Raia, Dad would have bought her if the boatyard here hadn't been developed. He saw her in ferry service only a few years ago, she surely can't have been too bad. I do hope you and JohnK can find a temporary place for Ambra in the UK. I'm sure Phil has told you already there are at least 4 more in the UK, at Hayling Island Platypus ex 467 and Fontenay ex 437. At Hoo Elektra ex 469 and on the Medway Quiberon ex 505. Sadly another good one was broken up in Spain quite recently, she was never identified but served for very many years in the Spanish Customs service as Milano. I don't know of any others still surviving.

Regards, Christian.  



Posted By: S R Wilson
Date Posted: 10 February 2007 at 8:50pm

Hi, Christian.

You have kindly listed the 4 other boats that are in the UK. Do you mean that they are for sale or just that they are in existance? If for sale do you have any details to pass on please

Regards



-------------
SRW
"Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy" WSC.



Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 10 February 2007 at 9:10pm

Hello Sentley

I think houseboat Quiberon is still on the market, try the houseboat centre, for around £85,000.00. Makes the MA/SB seem quite cheap!

General notice to all forum users; Wikipedia have uploaded two very fine photos of MGB 81 (MTB 416 for the sake of this topic) they can be downloaded; once you click on the picture, click on full-size and you'll get a 1MB size picture.

Link;

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Gun_Boat - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Gun_Boat

 

Rgds, Christian.

 



Posted By: S R Wilson
Date Posted: 10 February 2007 at 9:29pm

Evening Christian,

Thanks for your prompt reply. The other way to look at it is that Quiberon is rather expensive!!! I agree, however, that the MA/SB is at a good price. As you know if I had the money I would buy her now. As you also know it is not just the purchase price but the committment and money required for her upkeep and I don't think anybody can do that alone unless they have very deep pockets.

Regards



-------------
SRW
"Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy" WSC.



Posted By: CCFT
Date Posted: 11 February 2007 at 4:48am

10 February 2007

Thank you to everyone who has posted emails concerning our venture to save MTB 506.  We do not know what the owners of 481/Bimini will be asking, or even when they shall be listing their boat, but it is quite conceivable that they shall not be able to sell her.  We have no idea how sound her hull is, but I have been below decks and can tell you that many original bulkheads are still in place.   

We do have concerns regarding an attempt to motor to the UK in an unseaworthy vessel and it would appear from other interested postings that, unfortunately, the French Canals will not be an option.  We shall be shortly emailing our contact at Captain Morgan in the hopes of getting a better picture of what state 506 is in, how sound her hull is and what types of equipment and engines she still has on board, although it is likely that she has been stripped of much of it.  We must also discover how long Captain Morgan will keep her before going ahead and scuttling her.  I visited both 506 and Raia back in ’03, and know that both were quite bare below decks.  Few original bulkheads were still in place and they had been mostly opened up into a single large compartment.

If we decide against taking 506, we would certainly be happy for another group to save her and would certainly pass their name(s) along to Captain Morgan.  

Yours aye,

Lieutenant (Navy) Nicholas CM Armstrong, Canadian Forces

President

Canadian Coastal Forces Trust



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Lt(N) Nicholas CM Armstrong


Posted By: johnk
Date Posted: 11 February 2007 at 8:14am

Hi All,

 

Just read all the post flowing ex Lt Armstrongs and latest, all very good stuff ie advice and suggestions, do hope something comes of it. Have said before, excepting all the aruguments about up-keep of these vessels in the future, as you said Sentley, should "we" not be trying to get hold of these craft before they all go so at least it can be thought about and assesed at to wether to keep them or not, yes we have some great examples, MTB 102 etc, but it is fustrating as I am sure it is for others, to see them go. Said before, may be when the BMPT has more of an idea about what we are getting at Poole, we might be looking at a possible base for more vessels to be saved/stored even restored! we shall see.

 

Regards

John



Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 11 February 2007 at 9:16am

I think I missed something. Is there now a plot to deprive the CCFT of 506? The men of the Canadian 29th made huge sacrifices and the Canadians are just as entitled to her. Who are the "we" referred to above? Is it not the heritage of Britain and her wartime dominions also? I wish Nicholas the best of luck in his quest. Ultimately the preservation of these vessels is the most important thing, wherever they end up.

Rgds,  



Posted By: johnk
Date Posted: 11 February 2007 at 9:46am

Hi Christian,

Ah, I really am sorry if I have caused such offence! in no way was I suggesting depriving the CCFT of the chance to get 506 or any other vessel, if they can get hold of them and save them, great! I was thinking of other vessels that could/should be saved, the "we" reference, well perhaps I should have put "someone", I was trying to refer to the ever present question of who is going to do something, again, sorry if it gave the impression of "hot air", I am involved with marine heritage, only from a distance in terms of coastal forces at the moment, ie member of BMPT, MTB102. I have said that I would be happy to offer any help or suggestions that I can to CCFT or any one else, OK I know suggestions and advice are ten a penny and indeed actions speak louder than words. Again my apologies for any offence caused.

Regards

 

John 



Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 11 February 2007 at 10:07am

Sorry John, it seems your post above confused me into thinking you were saying something else.

Rgds,



Posted By: dgray
Date Posted: 11 February 2007 at 10:52am
Hi Christian,

I made a comment earlier wondering about the feasibility of gettting the Malta boat onto the hard somewhere, for the CCFT or whoever to get hold of.

In Port Leucate th 65'  was about £150  per month on the hard. There must be other marinas/yards littering the coast of the Med where ther Boat could be  stored until Summer.

If this would buy a breathing space for this boat, it seems a logical  step to take.   While waiting on the hard, she could be gotten (more) seaworthy  ready for whatever journey awaits. 

Like I said, a breathing space....  Do you know of any suitable places on Malta or nearby.  The North African coast seems most logical....

Cheers



-------------
Don


Only a number, not even a name. How shall posterity hear of thy fame?


Posted By: northeastuser
Date Posted: 11 February 2007 at 11:52am

I don’t think john did anything more or less than what some of the rest of us do

I think there is a lot of general talk on this forum. A lot of it is phrased in terms of we or us. But I think this is just the way we have ended up talking in broad terms here.

Nothing wrong with that. However someone new to the forum may take more from what we say that what we mean. Did that make sense?

But Christian is right in that we should support what the CCFT in what they do.(Well I think that is what he meant!) I for one would like to say that I will support them in anyway possible. To put it bluntly they were there first and they have a right to remember our common history. ( No offence to anyone)



Posted By: Pioneer
Date Posted: 11 February 2007 at 12:14pm

Hello All

I have been watching this thread and I would just point out that this is a discussion Forum - sometimes during the course of any 'discussion' somethings are misunderstood but are usually quickly corrected and John and Christian, in this case, quickly sorted out any misinterpretation. The 'we' was intended to mean all of us enthusiasts I would think - no matter from where we hail Canada UK Aus (and even Gib) etc NEuser has hit the nail - I would suggest

 



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Pioneer - Forum Moderator


Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 11 February 2007 at 12:34pm

Yeah!

And I like Don's idea too, although cheap boatyards just do not exist in my part of the world. I am in correspondence with a new contact in Malta, I will ask him to find out about a space to keep her there.

Rgds to all the boat-nuts

Christian.



Posted By: northeastuser
Date Posted: 11 February 2007 at 1:09pm

Well if its any help to the CCFT I will put my hand in my pocket on a long term to help with the cost of putting her somewhere safe until they can go get her. E.g. I will help with storage costs. (as long as someone takes papal as me and credits cards don’t mix anymore lol)

   just dont tell the wife



Posted By: northeastuser
Date Posted: 11 February 2007 at 1:20pm

Just one last thought re the canals option. Is there anyway to find out where and what the bottle neck is?

I’m assuming that a lot of the routes have or had commercial freight on them. If there is one or two sections that limit the vessel then perhaps an option would be to have her lifted out and trucked part of the way. That has to be cheaper than trucking her all the way to the UK across ferries etc.



Posted By: S R Wilson
Date Posted: 11 February 2007 at 2:34pm

Maybe we could find the bottle neck by referance to a French canal map. If not there must be people who have made this journey either as professional skippers or on their own boats who may know the answer.

Suggest its only a question of research once the boat has been secured by CCFT.



-------------
SRW
"Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy" WSC.



Posted By: dgray
Date Posted: 11 February 2007 at 2:56pm
I'm not sure she would take lifting by crane without a cradle as Captain Morgan's said that she needs to be completely refastened.

I think before she is moved anywhere there needs to be a plan like where she is going to go in the UK and is there a berth available.

Has she still got engines?  Do they run?  Will the CCFT be able to take her (I'm sure like us, they are keen but getting funding is hard).

If Captain Morgan's say she is floating and capable of moving under power,  I suggest comissioning a local surveyor to photograph and give a rough condition report.

I don't mind calling Captain Morgan's to ascertain her current condition   but I don't want to stick my oar in and muddy the waters.

THe  CCFT are already talking to Captain Morgan's and probably have this information?

Cheers

-------------
Don


Only a number, not even a name. How shall posterity hear of thy fame?


Posted By: northeastuser
Date Posted: 11 February 2007 at 3:10pm

My impression is that the CCFT already have the Ambra in principal. It is the logistics of the situation that are causing delays. Unfortunately the delays are what may end her chances of being saved. Hopefully we can extend her stay of execution until the CCFT can do something.



Posted By: dgray
Date Posted: 11 February 2007 at 3:23pm
Hi Northeastuser,

I think it's great that the CCFT get her.  However they aren't sure that they can actually get her (I reallyhope they can).  I'm willing to do what I can to help.

However the questions in my email are about the logistics of saving her  and will have to be answered before anything much can happen. 
Cheers

-------------
Don


Only a number, not even a name. How shall posterity hear of thy fame?


Posted By: northeastuser
Date Posted: 11 February 2007 at 3:28pm

“completely refastened“.

I was under the impression that she is double diagonal with planks copper roved together.

To get to the point where they would need refastening would mean that she is barely holding her shape and probably working and leaking like a sieve. Having said that I am thinking of 1262. She is rather lighter built than the Ambra.

Perhaps the moderators from BMPT can enlighten us as to what can be refastened in these vessels?



Posted By: Pioneer
Date Posted: 11 February 2007 at 3:44pm
Pass

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Pioneer - Forum Moderator


Posted By: dgray
Date Posted: 11 February 2007 at 4:03pm
Hi,
Weren't they double diagonal hull with treble diagonal chines?  Below is part of an email from Captain Morgan's.   I can only go on what they tell me.

From Captain Morgan's "The engines are in working order but vessel needs to be completely re fastened. We decommissioned her on the 31st December 2005".....


-------------
Don


Only a number, not even a name. How shall posterity hear of thy fame?


Posted By: northeastuser
Date Posted: 11 February 2007 at 4:03pm

I suppose that it comes down to what he thinks refastening is and what it will do combined with why he thinks she needs it.

Perhaps we can assume that the vessel ’works’ while at sea and takes on water. So a natural assumption would be that she needs refastening.

Apparently she has no internal bulkheads and is just open below decks. So I am hardly surprised there is some structural movement. In my amateurish opinion it has probably allowed her to work and loosen the main frame and keel fastenings allowing the vessel work more and so she probably takes on water when at sea so they consider her worn out.

This brings to mind temporary steel/timber bulkheads and knees to strengthen her a bit.

Has anyone a cross section of her construction details that they could post ?



Posted By: AndyS
Date Posted: 11 February 2007 at 4:41pm
She is triple on the bottom and double in the sides, laminated keel.
Tied with open floors to bearers and some braces in lieu of bulkheads will do. Morgan Cruises put a lot of top weight onto her so there must be some internal bracing or pillaring.


Posted By: dgray
Date Posted: 11 February 2007 at 5:34pm
Out of curiosity, why take her back to the UK if she's going to Canada?



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Don


Only a number, not even a name. How shall posterity hear of thy fame?


Posted By: northeastuser
Date Posted: 11 February 2007 at 5:47pm

Good point. However I suppose it depends on how long CCFT need to raise the funds top take her all the way. It may be cheaper to bring her to the uk and store her here amongst friends. Once in the uk it may be possible that some source of funds may be found to do some work on her for the CCFT.

If she’s here for say a year then a lot of community projects could be completed around her.

Who knows but it would be nice if that re-fastening was done for them at least. It would be nice to give them something back.

Its all just a verbal exercise and show of support at the moment.



Posted By: northeastuser
Date Posted: 11 February 2007 at 5:55pm

Anyway i am going to follow the lead of Johnk and shut up now..( before I get told to! )



Posted By: S R Wilson
Date Posted: 12 February 2007 at 11:13am
Likewise. Hope CCFT now know they can call on support if needed

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SRW
"Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy" WSC.



Posted By: clive
Date Posted: 12 February 2007 at 12:09pm

RE-FASTENING

definition.

Where a boat is copper clenched and the copper nails have worked loose through movement (bulkheads removed) or wood gone soft, the planking will need refastening, this involves a 'boy' outside the hull holding a dolly against the nail head and a man inside with a hammer and a rove punch, fist of all tightening the rove and then hitting the end of the nail to tighten it against the rove. When it is tight two taps with the hammer means move on to the next fastening.

This must be one of the most boring jobs I could imagine and woud recon it could take upto 3 weeks for a boat of 70'.

 I did not explain that the rove is the copper disc with a hole in it which fits over the copper nail on the inside of the boat.

Hope this explains a process which died out well before I was born!!



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masbie something in the water.   www.freewebs.com/masb32/


Posted By: dgray
Date Posted: 12 February 2007 at 12:30pm
Hi Clive,

I certainly am no expert as I've only done a couple of hundred on my little boat.  You're dead right though, it's boring with a capital 'B'  but, in saying that,  the joint won't loosen over time like one that is screwed (again in my very limited experience).

Cheers

Don


Posted By: rozm2
Date Posted: 12 February 2007 at 3:33pm
Out of interest the process described above, when you say one would tighten the rove, I presume you'd just push it further up the nail so it's close up to the wood, then rivet over the copper nail (I presume originals, not complete replacments?


Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 12 February 2007 at 3:49pm
The original copper rivets would be in no state to be tightened in this way (they'd be green, brittle and thin). The main problem with new ones is where to put them, there's usually only enough space for one re-fastening exercise (provided the wood is up to it!). I always thought all BPB craft were screwed together anyway?


Posted By: dgray
Date Posted: 12 February 2007 at 4:09pm
I went up a nail size when repairing mine where the timber was sound. In a lot of places in the chine, the timber had rotted due to freshwater  ingress (rain/leaking deck!) so very major surgery was required as the inner timber was rotted.

On my little BPB boat, hull sides diagonal & screwed to batons . The chine is D/D, roved and screwed.

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Don


Only a number, not even a name. How shall posterity hear of thy fame?


Posted By: northeastuser
Date Posted: 12 February 2007 at 4:09pm

I had assumed that all double diagonals were copper roved to each other and screwed to the frames.



Posted By: AndyS
Date Posted: 12 February 2007 at 4:48pm
Construction varies a bit between different boat classes, but generally the diagonal planks are clenched to each other and screwed to frames. The planks may be either screwed or clenched to stringers and half frames, depending on the detailed construction.

It varies from boat to boat, but some boats will take up on the original roves, but others will not. With care they will often take up reasonably well if in good condition, but if the take up is by deforming a weakened nail, rather than tightening up the rove, then they will quickly work out again and be weakened.

It appears to be an issue of original materials and then any stray currents around the boat in use, but the BPBC boats generally have quite a good record in this respect.

The screws are much less likely to be in good condition, but again this varies between boats.

The approach must be taken on a case by case basis and with a view to the current condition and intended use of the boat.

For the record BPBC installed roves very quickly as they used power drills and hammers to install them, whereas it is normal pracitice to manually tap them.



Posted By: dgray
Date Posted: 12 February 2007 at 4:57pm
Hi Andy,

Have you ever (carefully) used an air hammer on the nail head to keep the nail seated when roving.  My arm was falling off after holding a small sledge hammer head against the nail head.  Just looking for a short cut!!
Cheers



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Don


Only a number, not even a name. How shall posterity hear of thy fame?


Posted By: CCFT
Date Posted: 12 February 2007 at 5:37pm

12 February 2007

We have sent a reply to Captain Morgan’s offer of MTB 506, asking about the state of her hull, engines, equipment and about timing.  They by no means indicated that her disposal had to be immediate, but if this is the case, then the CCFT shall have to pass on this boat, as much as it pains us.  The logistics, lack of time and distance would make this effort unfeasible for us (we all have full time jobs, or in my case, two, and young families).

There was no offence taken in the earlier discussion about who should preserve 506 as, like most of you, we are primarily concerned that the boat is saved at all.  Lt(N) Paul Simas, the vice-president of our group, tried contacting Captain Morgan via telephone, but unfortunately missed their opening hours due to the time difference.  We shall try again on the 13th and post whatever replies we can get from Captain Morgan.  If we have to turn down the offer of 506, we should be extremely happy for one of you to take up the ball and to try and safeguard this vessel for future generations.

I have posted a couple of scans of these boats below decks that I took back in ’03.  Unfortunately, this was before the Trust was formed and I thus neglected to record whether they were of 506 or of Raia (MTB ???).  There wasn’t much of a difference anyway, except the other boat had only two engines.

Incidentally, Wednesday is the anniversary of the Ostend disaster, in which so many CF crew and civilians lost their lives, and was the demise of the 29th Flotilla.

Aye,

L(N) Nicholas CM Armstrong, CF

President

CCFT



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Lt(N) Nicholas CM Armstrong


Posted By: dgray
Date Posted: 12 February 2007 at 6:26pm
Well I think we should wait and see if the Captain Morgan's disposal of MTB506 is iminent or not.  If it is not urgent, the  CCFT should have every opportunity to try to get her. 

FYI, here are details of yacht transport from Italy direct to the US East/West coasts . Might be worth a shout.  http://www.yacht-transport.com/downloads/files/DYT_trifold.p df



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Don


Only a number, not even a name. How shall posterity hear of thy fame?


Posted By: dgray
Date Posted: 12 February 2007 at 6:28pm
Did MTB 506 have  a similar superstructure to MGB 81?

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Don


Only a number, not even a name. How shall posterity hear of thy fame?


Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 12 February 2007 at 8:23pm

Hi Don

She had a different Admiralty type MTB bridge like these;

These are post-war views, note the addition of portholes which were added after the war and which Ambra also has.



Posted By: dgray
Date Posted: 12 February 2007 at 8:29pm
Thanks Christian.  I thought they might be that type.  Not as sexy but probably a lot more practical.

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Don


Only a number, not even a name. How shall posterity hear of thy fame?


Posted By: Pioneer
Date Posted: 12 February 2007 at 8:47pm
Just a recap on Ambra's history - she was - as we all know ex 506. Then ex P1506 'Proud Grenadier' - then (when fitted with Gas Turbine machinery) 'Southerner' (for Southern Television) - been around this old boat - so a trip to Canada? would that be something!

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Pioneer - Forum Moderator


Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 12 February 2007 at 9:05pm

Hi CCFT

Raia's portholes make me think she was also a later boat, i.e. not 464. It's just a hunch.



Posted By: AndyS
Date Posted: 12 February 2007 at 9:59pm
dgray
I have not personnaly tried an air hamer, but expect to to be fairly easy to set up the right force on new fastenings where the forces will be very consistant. If i had a lot to do and a reasonbly lightweight hammer I would consider it, but would probably try using a semi-formed head on the air hammer to encourage the head shape. I have never had a suitable tool for this
I have only used the standard labour intensive method,
pilot hole, hammer through, press dolly to nail head on outside, use hollow drift to press down the rove, nip off and then pien to hammer form a head on the inside to retain the rove.
It sounds a lot, but it is possible to get up quite a bit of speed once the persons on both sides of the boat hull understand the 'system' that is agreed upon.
...yes it is hard work on the arms holding up the dolly, but that would be required for power hammering too.
Note BPBC were fastened upside down so the heavy dolly would generally be down hand and the hammer/power former would be handled overhead on the inside.


Posted By: dgray
Date Posted: 12 February 2007 at 10:11pm
Hi,

Does anyone know what Ambra's MGB pennant number was?

Thanks

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Don


Only a number, not even a name. How shall posterity hear of thy fame?


Posted By: dgray
Date Posted: 13 February 2007 at 12:58am
Thanks Andy,  I thought it might be worth a try but I don't know if an air hammers 'hammer' rate can be adjusted to just a few a second.

Point taken about use only on new fastenings.

Cheers

-------------
Don


Only a number, not even a name. How shall posterity hear of thy fame?


Posted By: AndyS
Date Posted: 13 February 2007 at 8:00am
DGray
I think that softer blows (if the impact joules can be set down low enough) at a higher intensity might be beneficial, as opposed to a few whacks from my hammer with my calibrated (or not) arm!
The only hammers that I have seen are shipyard caulking hammers which are tough, not subtle and not that light either, but there must be some smaller tools available based upon garage equipment.
Best regards
AndyS



Posted By: jimmy p
Date Posted: 13 February 2007 at 8:34am

 May be worth putting a drawing of the tool on here. Surely theres an engineer who can turn one, or a few dozen and sell them.

 



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A boat is a hole in the water surrounded by wood, into which one throws money


Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 13 February 2007 at 2:44pm

This is the only hull-shot I have found of Ambra as Southerner. Anyone got a bigger/better picture?



Posted By: CCFT
Date Posted: 14 February 2007 at 1:42pm

14 February 2007

Yesterday I telephoned Kevin Briffa of Captain Morgan, the manager for cruises.  From our conversation, I have determined that MTB 506 possess two 6 cylinder, 180 hp Ford diesel engines.  She has no equipment at all on board other than the engines, steering and throttles.  She has no gear boxes, however, as they were removed for another boat. 

The hull needs refastening, but is not falling apart.  They have to pump her every two to three days to keep her afloat and there are doublers attached externally to strengthen the hull.  They will keep her for a few weeks, but then shall break her up, which was apparently the actual fate of Raia, not scuttling.

Given the timing and the state of the boat, I’m afraid the CCFT shall have to pass on 506.  This pains us greatly as she and Raia were the initial objectives for our restoration plans.  Until very recently we were still under the impression that Captain Morgan wanted $100 000 US per boat.  If we had been aware of their status at an earlier date, we might have been able to intervene to save these boats, but the logistics shall be too great for us to handle in the limited time available. 

While 486 remains the primary objective of the CCFT, we shall begin looking at another existing BPC G Type to act as our “living” example of one of these craft.  We invite anybody else who is interested in 506 to step forward.  Captain Morgan will give her to any interested party, so long as they remove her from their “anchorage”.  Jimmy P, Kevin mentioned that you had also been in contact regarding 506.

We sincerely hope that there is an interested party in the United Kingdom who will be interested in taking on 506, and preserving her for future generations. 

The telephone number for Captain Morgan is (356) 2346 3333.  Just ask for Kevin Briffa when you get through.

Aye, 

L(N) Nicholas CM Armstrong, CF

President

CCFT  

 

 



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Lt(N) Nicholas CM Armstrong


Posted By: northeastuser
Date Posted: 14 February 2007 at 3:03pm

Well has anyone got the cash to go out there and do something? Maybe take a couple of gearboxes with you! If someone goes out there and takes ownership I will fly out for a wee bit and help. If no one can go, I will fly out at the last min and take her over for a few weeks until someone can think of something.

However if no one figures out anything I will have to sink her myself. (she’s a bit to big to get home on the plane as luggage!) Having said that I may just end up staying there!.. Ok if someone goes and saves her has anyone any idea where a berth may be found for her?

And what’s the cost of living like out there? How hard is it to get work /work permits etc.

A houseboat in the med.. omg you guys don’t know how tempted I am.



Posted By: johnk
Date Posted: 14 February 2007 at 3:43pm

Hello All,

 

Just read the above re the 506, without gear boxes it will be difficult to do much I guess, and from what has been said about the hull... I would say that it would need quite some work to sort. If only she could be "held" for longer than a few weeks, at least some sort of thought/plan could be put together. I would endorse the view that we should save her for the CCFT, if that's what they would want, "we" have the 71 foot MGB 81, although still I believe in private hands. My peronal resources are limited, apart from words I know, but...I offer what I can if a plan with costs and logistics is presented. Saw Malta on a map on TV the other day, quite a way away of course, would two180 hp engines do it? quite apart from the hull plus fuel and safety equipment etc. Well, there's my two pence worth.

 

John 



Posted By: AndyS
Date Posted: 14 February 2007 at 3:57pm
Northeastuser

I think that Malta is now in the EEC and therefore work permits and  imports from other EEC countries should be a lot easier  when compared to previous times.

Does anyone know what box type, style and ratio were in her originally?

That will give the mating configuration, offsets and coupling information.
If the boxes are gone, then what about the shafts, props, rudders, fuel tanks/system and cooling circuits?

Andy


Posted By: northeastuser
Date Posted: 15 February 2007 at 3:58pm

So how about removing copper roves? Is this a hard task and can it be done single handed? I am just thinking of plank removal on a double diagonal.



Posted By: AndyS
Date Posted: 15 February 2007 at 7:17pm
northeastuser
I have tried several methods from prying, spot grinders to angle grinders.
The best method that I have worked up is to use a very small diameter tube cutter which cut down the outside of the hammered head of the nail up to the rove. The rove then just pings offas it is no longer retained  or needs a little persuasion. The nail can then be drifted out using a long parrallel punch, in fact it only needs drifting a little to start and then the nail can be gripped at the head with mole grips and pulled.
I have imported some small diameter tube cutters from the USA for this, as I did not find any in this country. They are expensice and a do not last too long if used on hard metals but copper works very well.
Hope this helps
AndyS


Posted By: northeastuser
Date Posted: 15 February 2007 at 9:35pm

woops.



Posted By: S R Wilson
Date Posted: 02 March 2007 at 1:03pm

Just on the Malta/EU point. I think the position is that Malta has applied to join, though heaven only knows why, and untill they do they won't have to put up with the P C guff that we have to deal with.

I suppose that cuts both ways in that the cost of work out there is cheaper but working there is more dangerous. You pays your money and makes your choice.



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SRW
"Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy" WSC.



Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 18 July 2007 at 5:21pm

I think Joeblob has gone elsewhere, in the meantime I came across this photo of MTB 458 and attendant rooster tail in service;

 

It is from Home Waters MTBs.... 



Posted By: Joeblob
Date Posted: 23 February 2009 at 9:38am
Hi All
           Sorry I have not been around for a while but busy on other things.In the search for info on my fathers boat MTB 458 I managed to get a few pages from her logbook via the Naval Historical Branch which I have attached. Note the date.
 
                                             http://www.bmpt.co.uk/uploads/89/Img4385.rar - uploads/89/Img4385.rar       http://www.bmpt.co.uk/uploads/89/Img4390.rar - uploads/89/Img4390.rar http://www.bmpt.co.uk/uploads/89/Img4389.rar - uploads/89/Img4389.rar http://www.bmpt.co.uk/uploads/89/Img4388.rar - uploads/89/Img4388.rar


Posted By: Pioneer
Date Posted: 23 February 2009 at 12:00pm
These links are difficult to open 'joeblob'. I will suggest that you convert them into another file format (jpeg or gif)

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Pioneer - Forum Moderator


Posted By: Joeblob
Date Posted: 25 February 2009 at 1:03pm

Give these links a try,I hope they open/



Posted By: Joeblob
Date Posted: 25 February 2009 at 1:09pm
This maybe better


Posted By: jimmy p
Date Posted: 24 March 2009 at 3:53am
Having a word with my local tip about getting hardwood furniture to put through the table saw. Who knows, if enough timber can be found local to the boats then don't see a good reason why they cant be saved if stupid storage bills dont suddenly come along once somebody shows an interest? Play the recylcling card but be careful what you wish for, with current propoganda you may just get it!! Silly as it sounds, get me the timber & i'll have a bash at 458 between tides. Couldn't land her in worse trouble than she's in now & at least she'd have a fighting chance

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A boat is a hole in the water surrounded by wood, into which one throws money


Posted By: Pioneer
Date Posted: 22 April 2009 at 8:59am

These two recent images of MTB 458 were passed on by Richard. The Stern has been stove in, as can be seen. Time is certainly running out for her.

 


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Pioneer - Forum Moderator


Posted By: jimmy p
Date Posted: 23 April 2009 at 1:47am
Ouch! is that storm damage or is somebody stripping her?
 If anyones got a load of timber i'm free in about 6 weeks but she doesnt look too promising


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A boat is a hole in the water surrounded by wood, into which one throws money


Posted By: johnk
Date Posted: 23 April 2009 at 7:43am
Hi All,
 
Indeed, I would have to agree not to promising, think sad to say to far gone now, a great pity,
 
JohnK


Posted By: tramontana
Date Posted: 23 April 2009 at 10:32am
I had a look at this one a couple of years ago another superb looking B.P.B. Hull, Bow on, it certainly looks like she has been modified in the Stern area for some reason which has weakened her structure, I wonder if the Gangway has "dug in" and broke her open, has she had a small fire in that area? At one time the Developer's of the Flat's near this small group of Boat's were keen to see them moved, possibly the Owner moved into one of the Flat's.


Posted By: northeastuser
Date Posted: 23 April 2009 at 2:07pm
wonder if the v drive is still in?
If she has been there all her life then perhaps she may have salvagable fittings?
Dare I suggest she be aquired and stripped? perhaps the wheel house could be saved for display?


Posted By: jimmy p
Date Posted: 24 April 2009 at 2:22am
I was wondering whats left in her. The raised roof over the engine room suggests a floor was laid on her engine bearers, may be worth pulling a few boards up for a looksee!!
   Only way i could move her would be in quarters on a scaffold truck(not good for originality & strength on DD), Through normal restoration channels my advice would be buy MGB81 & save the price of a house but i'm open to helping an eccentric with a large barn & plenty of time, timber, cash ect ect.
  If nobody else wants her wheelhouse it would look nice restored in my garden.
 


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A boat is a hole in the water surrounded by wood, into which one throws money


Posted By: jimmy p
Date Posted: 24 April 2009 at 3:17am
Out of interest.
 would anyone have a load of marine ply & bits for frames, fixings ect they'd like to gamble on her? I'v noticed from the pics that she hasn't twisted, her backs not broken, her chine is still attached to the side planking & that wheelhouse is still where it was originally put & not in the bilges. Reckon she could be patched into a houseboat again but dont think she'll ever do 40knots again.
  If this storage comes up then i may be tempted to have a crack & leave the kids something interesting(albiet still unfinished). for some strange reason they dont build them anymore so its not like another surplus one will come along in a couple of yearsStern%20Smile.
 At the worst unleash the expanding foam & no worries about her sinking, just some poor bugger spending a few weeks scraping it out when towed to yard.
  Also the old hippie who collects scrap on the itchen moors next to her so suspect the damage was where he hit her trying to unload a barge full of shopping trolleys, no offence to the chap just stop crashing into our heritage


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A boat is a hole in the water surrounded by wood, into which one throws money


Posted By: jimmy p
Date Posted: 02 May 2009 at 2:31am
Is she fair game to salvage?

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A boat is a hole in the water surrounded by wood, into which one throws money


Posted By: dgray
Date Posted: 05 May 2009 at 8:36am
Anyone know what happened to Robrina ( the other 63' whaleback at Shoreham)?


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Don


Only a number, not even a name. How shall posterity hear of thy fame?



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