Perhaps this is a good thread to share a search I have saved on my ebay, it searches in both titles and descriptions for any item with any year between 1939 and 1945 in it (as I'm into vintage cars I also have one covering all years from 1920-39 in the cars section, it can be used with any years) I'm sure others will already use this search but it might be of use to someone!:

http://motors.search-desc.ebay.co.uk/1939-1940-1941-1942-1943-1944-1945_Boats-Watercraft_W0QQcatrefZC2QQcoactionZcompareQQcoentrypageZsearchQQcopagenumZ1QQfromZR10QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQftrtZ1QQftrvZ1QQftsZ2QQga10244Z10425QQsacatZ1293QQsatitleZQ281939Q2c1940Q2c1941Q2c1942Q2c1943Q2c1944Q2c1945Q29 - http://motors.search-desc.ebay.co.uk/1939-1940-1941-1942-194 3-1944-1945_Boats-Watercraft_W0QQcatrefZC2QQcoactionZcompare QQcoentrypageZsearchQQcopagenumZ1QQfromZR10QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1Q QftrtZ1QQftrvZ1QQftsZ2QQga10244Z10425QQsacatZ1293QQsatitleZQ 281939Q2c1940Q2c1941Q2c1942Q2c1943Q2c1944Q2c1945Q29

 Its worth getting as some of the spitfire restorers can claim to have an original plane just from an engine & id plate.

 Anyone got the id for a fairmile D??

I have read countless times that boats were "crash started" and that damage could result. Just to show my ignorance can someone please tell me how an MTB / MGB, or any other boat is crash started and what damage might result?

Thanks in advance

Hello Sentley,

'Crash Start' - From my own experience as a Stoker all those years ago!! The Packard's normally would be started by priming the Carb with a pump like apparatus: then engaging the normal electric starter motors with Pull and twist Button's. Once the engine was running and the Rev's set steady at around 6-800 rpm the Start switch would be turned to run on one magneto only - then you would be ready and waiting for the Telegraph to give you instructions - normal control would be via the Bridge Throttles linked to the Engine Room Repeater Telegraph. The Drive train would normally be in neutral when all that happened. A 'Crash Start' would be with the Gearbox already engaged in Forward and once the Engine 'fired up', control of the speed of the Engine would be via the direct Linkage to the Bridge - the Stokers relying only on the Repeater for any changes to the Drive ie Forward or Reverse. This could mean that some Gear changes may result in the Engine 'over revving' (2400 rpm usually being the max) I have seen revs at over 3000rpm with out damage (but very lucky). I have also witnessed Engines seizing at much lower Revs The Gearbox's (on the 'Gay' class at least) were controlled manually by large levers within the Engine Room only (before any hydraulic control)

Regards

Hello SR,

I am a member of the Engine room operating crew on the USS PT658 a 78 foot WW2 Higgins PT Boat located in Portland, Oregon and we have a very specific starting procedure for our 3 5m-2500 V12 Packard Marine engines. These are the same engines I believe as on most of the British MTB's and MGB's. Here is an abbreviated procedure.

1. First we do a switch and valve lineup, to check the position of the Battery Breakers and 24vdc power to the "Ignition" circuit. We also check that our gasoline supply line valves are open from the gas tank to the priming pump and then to the carburator. Then we check that the oil and water cooling lines are open, and there should be visible levels of oil in the sump tank siteglass and water in the expansion tank glass. We also check that the dust cover is removed from the air intake filter/screen on the carburator. Next check that the engine is not in gear, by shifting it to neutral.

2. Prime the gas line by pumping with the "wobble pump" (hand operated) until you see 5 psig on the carb inlet pressure gage. The Wobble pump has a bypass valve that must be in the "Closed" position while priming. After the engine is running the Bypass can be opened, since the entire flow for all 3 engines must pass through it, and the Wobble pump cannot pass that much flow through itself.

3. Check the position of the Magneto selector switch is "OFF"

4. Roll the engine without ignition to prime the oil lines. Do this by checking the Magneto selector switch is in the "OFF" position, then press the Starter button and crank the engine over until you see at least 50 psig oil pressure on the engine pressure gage. The engine will not start since there is no power to the spark plugs.

5. After achieving oil prime, take the Magneto selector switch to the "Both" position, or the "Boost" position. The engine should start. Return the Magneto to the "Both" position if you used the "Boost" or engine damage could result.

6. Monitor and adjust the Oil and Water temperature as needed.

I am not sure the Starter motor would be able to crank over the engine fast enough to start a cold engine if the engine were in gear, ie the "Crash Start" Pioneer referred to. Perhaps a warm engine would start right up, but once you had the first engine running, the drag of the propeller through the water may be enough to start the other 2 engines by placing them in gear while starting it? I do not think we will ever try that maneuver on the PT658 since it is the only surviiving US PT Boat still operating in the world. Hopefully by reading this procedure of how we start our Packards, it will give you some insight into how they did it back during WW2. Take Care. Jerry Gilmartin

PS Check out our website www.savetheptboatinc.com

 Thanks for the imfo Jerry.

 Definatley wouldnt try that with your pt boat. Whats a snapped rod cost to fix on a packard .

 Keep up the good work

Hello Jerry

Many thanks for showing us the proper way of starting a Packard. Although I am relying on a distant memory - as 'our' equipment was owned by HM Gov't - that level of 'care' would not usually be taken by 'conscript' Stoker's (who did'nt want to be there in first place!!) - a wartime scenero however could be entirely different - and I have had several instances related to me - both then and since - that Engine Room staff were seen to be almost fanatical on the care of 'their' particular charges.

I would love to hear the music of that particular sound again - but I have to rely on listening to the sound track during the credit rolls for 'The Ship that Died Of Shame'.

Seen your site - congratulations - must cost a fortune to insure.

Best Regards

Hi Jerry,

Many thanks for the information. Presumably that proceedure took some time to achieve. I can understand why it would be bypassed in an emergency.

Like wise seen your site. Keep checking it  to keep abreast of things. Keep up the good work and good luck.

Hello again Jerry

I've tried the link - but my old machine is playing up a little lately and I cannot open it - I'll try when it's a little quieter.

I did find the video on you home page that was made by Ken Nissen - talking to that proud Vet Dick Low - There is a short sound track of a Packard but its not quite how I remember the sound - lovely though it is. I would think that you are forbidden to take passengers on PT658? - how much does it cost to insure a petrol engined craft of that size?

I need to answer severa questions it looks like. I have no idea how much it would cost to replace a snapped piston rod on our Packards, although we already have spares. If that really happened, we would most likely have to pull the entire engine from the boat and drop in the spare engine we have at the ready. Then we could pull apart the broken engine and repair it at our leisure. It is hard to guess the cost for something like that.

As far as passengers, we are allowed to take people on board underway, (as evidenced by our recent photographs) but we are not allowed to charge any fees. The boat is not a "for hire" vessel. We are a non-profit group and any passengers we may take underway are strictly part of our organization, Save the PT Boat Inc.  We have insurance that covers us within a certain radius of our pier, I think it is 25 miles? We had to shop around but I think it is several thousand per year cost ($US) I think we have a pretty good deal.

Pioneer, if you were to visit Portland, Oregon at the right time of year, you would be able to tour the boat, and also have an excellant chance of  going underway on her. We must obtain permission for our underway events 3 months ahead of time from the US Navy Historical Branch in the Washington DC Navy Yard, so anytime we get underway is never a spur-of-the-moment type of thing.  But if you happened to be present the day we were getting underway and we could plan for it ahead of time I am sure we would have room for you!

Last Sept 2006, we participated in an event with the Sea Scouts at the Red Lion Inn on the Columbia River, called the "PT Boaters Bull Session" and we did have underway periods 3 times a day for 3 days. During that time, we had sign up sheets of 15 people, for each underway trip, each lasting for about 1 hour, where we left the dock and went upriver about 4 miles and then turned around and came back. During these periods we tried to take the engines up to full speed ahead. We had every WW2 veteran in attendance, the Sea Scouts, and a lot of their family and freinds able to ride underway. It was a great feeling being able to share the history with all of these people who would never had the opportunity to see such a wonder.

So I guess my point is that yes it is possible to get on board and go underway if you happen to be in the right place at the right time and you are a member of our organization. You know the drill. Jerry

Finally got it to 'download' Jerry - what a superb sound - that is how I remember them You handsome ol' dawg you -

The picture sequence is something else as well - just Full Marks!

Best Regards

Ted 

I posted the last before reading your answers - I somehow don't think I'll be able to make it (unless I win the Lottery) but I really do appreciate the offer - thanks Jerry. I would hope that you can 'Post' some more video links of her underweigh as they become available? I've attached this link to my 'Favourites' then when I need another 'fix' - I can 'play it again Sam'

Cheers

Ted

hi again Jerry.

What you guys have done is superb. I assume the packards aren't still avaliable to buy new. How did you find them? Were they in the boat or did you have to speak "nicely" to some one for them.

Hi Sentley,

Thanks for writing back. Some of our engines (3) came with the boat via the US Navy, and we were able to buy 2 others from Bud Tretter, who has the 83 foot AVR Crash Rescue Boat P520. He removed them from his boat to put in diesel engines instead. We are still in the market to obtain more of these engines, if they are available. It seems that from time to time you run across one that is for sale for between $2500 to $5000 USD. We are still looking for a reputable and knowledgeable firm who can repair and/or tune up the Holley 1685F  downdraft style, diaphragm-operated aircraft carburators that is part of these engines. Anybody knowing such a firm please let me know! I will be unable to reply to any more messages for about 12 hours from this post so if anybody replies I will answer them later on. Take care. Jerry

 Wow thats cheap! Merlins are going for £16k+ for total rebuilds here. Thats only because the Spitfire boys wouldnt ever be able to get them reticketed to fly. Find a useable one you'd have to sell your house.

 At U.S. prices you could ship some here to help with your running costs. Theres also a museum in canada that may take 4 for a lancaster(yes there are 3 left) Tempted to put one in my front room just to polish.

 Theres a few firms over here that could rebuild & test carbs on a 'static' engine. They'd still need setting up to suit the individual engine when you got them back so finding a local guy to do the complete job is prob your best bet.

 Is there a U.S. version of the BBMF? They'd be the guys to talk to & would prob teach one of your chaps as they go.

Top job on PT658

Hi Jimmy,

Sorry, but I have no idea what "BBMF" means. Let me guess, "British Boating Model Factory"? Ha ha! no really, let me know what it means, please?

Also, inferring from your post, I am not sure if you were thinking these PT boat engines were anything like a Packard-built "Merlin" aircraft engines.  These 5M-2500's are much larger, heavier, and marinized. The Merlin aero engines were made by Packard under liscence from Rolls-Royce on a parallel production line to the V12 boat engines. I think the Merlin is 1850 cubic inch while the 5M-2500 has 2490 cubic inch displacement. But the Merlin is much lighter and has a higher power-to-weight ratio. The 5M-2500 V12 owes its bloodlines to the WW1 "Liberty" V12 aircraft engine which Packard continued to make after WW1 and redesigned as the Packard 3A-2500, which was an aircraft engine used in among other aircraft the Dehavilland DH-1 Biplane bomber. Then that engine was modified into a boat engine called the 3M-2500. The 3M-2500 had 1200 horses. Then in 1942 it was improved again (by adding a supercharger) to become a 4M-2500 with 1500 horsepower. At the end of WW2, Packard came out with the 5M-2500 which added a larger, higher speed supercharger, plus an intercooler with an output of 1850 horsepower.

As far as the prices go, I imagine I could find people selling these boat engines for more than $5000 pretty easily, in fact I recently saw somebody asking for $8000 for one, but I guess it depends on who will give you that much for one of these engines. Maybe our group just ignores those high prices since we know we cant afford it, being a non-profit organization and all. So there you are, and by the way if you were already aware of all this I am sorry for explaining it all over again. Jerry

Something else of interest;

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RADIO-CONTROLLED-MODEL-BOAT-SHIP_W0QQitemZ200078658983QQihZ010QQcategoryZ2564QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RADIO-CONTROLLED-MODEL-BOAT-SHIP_W0QQi temZ200078658983QQihZ010QQcategoryZ2564QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Very nicely built from the Deans kit by the look of it. A bargain at £250.

Hi All,

Just wondering if members of the BMPT can expect a newsletter soon, just wondering what is happening regard Poole etc, understand though times can be quiet of course.

John

Thank you both for your enquiry re the newsletter, and my apologies that it has been so long since the last one.

The next one is due out early July, and this will advertise the date for the next AGM, at which date I hope you can both attend. As it has been so long, I will try and make a bumper edition for all our Members.

With regard to Mr Clabburn, may I suggest that wheelspanner be in touch with Mr Clabburn.

Mr Simons is a regular and highly valued contributer to the Trust ,in particular the website, and the new boats which we are finding regularly.

Once again please accept my apologies for the lateness of a newsletter, which will be rectified shortly.

Hi Pathfinder,

Many thanks your response, looking forward very much to the newsletter.

JohnK

Hi Jerry,

I'm a new guy here. BBMF stands for Battle of Britain Memorial Flight. Lancaster, Hurricane, Spitfire fly at different venues throughout Great Britain. I got to see them at Elvington (near York) a couple of years ago where there is a great Air Show every year. It's pretty darn cool to see a Lancaster fly. I think there are only 2? flying in the world. One there and one in Canada? They have a Victor tanker that they run up and down the runway with the chute deployed at the end. Too bad it isn't airworthy that I know of. The airfield has been restored to it's WWII configuration and have a Halifax in the hangar. There was a Mosquito in there too. Anyways, I hope this answers your question about the BBMF.