Exciting news from Philip Simons that the remains of MTB 715 have been found in Norway. These two shots showing the unmistakable lines of the Fairmile "D" were taken by Arild Overa who has kindly given permission for them to be reproduced here.

Pity she is not in better condition :(

Fantastic to see there is still one about..

Seems she was busy...

http://www.uboat.net/forums/list.php?22 - Warship forum

Hello again,

Got cut off trying to reply, said I see she is more intact that the one at Chatham, had no luck in getting response from port authority, well done Phil for finding her, also noted the time since picture was taken, oh to get a least a good part of a D to dislpay for people to see, would love to her any more news of her, who knows, with this find perhaps.....you never know. Great stuff,

Johnk

Hi Billy and Tramontana,

Very interesting points from both of you, as you say, as ex RNN, they perhaps might well want to take hold of her, perhaps best at least she would be save and as mentioned on display.

Johnk

who knows, perhaps they have started to save her already!

what ever her history, she looks quite original.

Having a closer and longer look at the photo's I reckon she has been underwater for some time and has been lifted out and beached for disposal, she seems to be pretty devoid of deck fittings, it would appear to me that at sometime she was  stripped of anything useful and scuttled. The hole in the deck looks like either a large rock or an anchor has gone through it, perhaps she was in the way of a pipeline or a marina developement. Bearing in mind the date of the photo and it looks like the chainsaws have  been at her stern I would be suprised if she still exists today, so the Chatham embers may still be the last sign of a Dog boat. On the subject of Dog Boats I "googled" the Bitter lakes and there are boats on the beach next to the old airfield but it is difficult to see what they are

Hi there,

Indeed, now you mention it, it dose seem the port side aft has been damaged and I to noticed the "dent" in the foredeck, pity, as I said, the starboard side was pretty intact. I to think that it is likely she was broken up, but then again perhaps a bit was saved, saw a chap had the stern of a coastal craft in his gargage her on the forum. Like the Chatham embers bit, but as mentioned, no luck in getting much interest.

Johnk

tramontana wrote: Having a closer and longer look at the photo's I reckon she has been underwater for some time and has been lifted out and beached for disposal, she seems to be pretty devoid of deck fittings, it would appear to me that at sometime she was  stripped of anything useful and scuttled. The hole in the deck looks like either a large rock or an anchor has gone through it, perhaps she was in the way of a pipeline or a marina developement. Bearing in mind the date of the photo and it looks like the chainsaws have  been at her stern I would be suprised if she still exists today, so the Chatham embers may still be the last sign of a Dog boat. On the subject of Dog Boats I "googled" the Bitter lakes and there are boats on the beach next to the old airfield but it is difficult to see what they are

Hi Where are the Bitter Lakes?

Hello Jim, on the  the Suez Canal, a number of Dog boats were left by their R.A.F. crews to provide Officers quarters, if you google the area you will see the old air base to the N.N.W. Like the Greeks the Arabs tend to be able to keep boats going long after other people have given up usually on a needs must basis and a dry climate helps, their are rumours that when the R.A.F. cleared the base after the War hundreds of engines were buried, somewhere

RBDG

Hi there,

Inded, I to was thinking where we these Bitter Lakes! but was to "polite" to ask! but you are quite right regards keeping ships going, they are looking to bring back the HMS Whimbrel a WW2 frigate wich the Eygiptians ran as a training ship and accomodation vessel, interesting web site but not got the exact address to hand, and is in almost all origional condition ie weapons and systems, but has had a very comprehensive over-plating job!. So, may be something there, bit dried out in such a climate but....now shipping a hundred plus foot WW2 vessel from there....!

John K

John K, unfortunatly "dog boats" had a lot of glue in them as you know and may have suffered the same fate as the Mosquito's that were stored out there when they found the joints were coming adrift due to the heat, the affected aircraft engines and bearer's were axed out of the wings, the aircraft were put into a circle (tails pointing towards the centre), the fuel drain cocks opened and a flare pistol fired at them. Who knows what has happened to the "dog boats"?

RBDG

Hi Tramontana

Indeed, I read somewhere, the forum?, about the glue on the D's, and that even in this climate the glue used was not upto the mark, let alone as you say in a hot climate. What a way to go for the Mosquitos, think of all the work and materials used, but then that was the post war thing, some much material produced and then not needed at the end. In the Medway towns we had a Fairmile factory and at the end of WW2 a load of hulls were unwanted and were sold minus engines and fuel tanks, for houseboats.

JohnK

Hi

Does anyone know where in Norway She is to Google her ?

Spent a lot of time looking about Bitter Lakes (Both of them)

And yes there could be some hulks on the beach...not sure about the scale though :(

Anyone know what happened to the Argintine Dogs ?

Found a page and pics of models while back....Mmmm i wonder

Regards to all

Jim.

Tramontana

Indeed, I have just got hold of a 1960 Bedford C4 bus which had spent the last half of its life as a caravan on various traveller sites in England, there are some real rare beasts on the site I looked round, OK all the seats have been ripped out of mine but I dont want them and if it had not been lived  in it would probably be in the big bus depot in the sky...

Hi Tamontana,

Not quite that old! but very interesting, as you say, thanks to post-war people needing housing, we have a number of these craft surviving, not least MTB 102 which was a housboat for a number of years, albeit some modifications are often done. I know of one on the Medway which unfortunatley has lot some bulkheads but is still going as a houseboat, another Freelance as short ex Polish forces was practicaly as was, just smaller engines and tanks. Also with the 486 which the Canadians are hoping to bring back, would be nice to see thier web site on the links section, I know they have BMPT listed on thiers. All great stuff,

Johnk

Re Links

Those wishing to have a link on this site would need to apply (as stated at top of that page) - CCFT has obviously not requested one as I'm sure that they would be accomodated. Cannot put Link up without permission etc

Hi Pioneer,

OK, thought they had been in touch but obviously not, quite understand, will get onto them,

Johnk

Hello Chaps,

Thanks for the interest in our being linked to the BMPT.  We would be honoured to be so included, and I have emailed Pioneer to that effect. 

Tramontana, I have to take issue with you (in the friendliest way) with your statement “unlike Canada who are keen to preserve their W.W.2 Maritime history”.

I’m afraid we are one of the worst of the developed nations when it comes to preserving our maritime heritage, especially naval.  The US (who may have many faults, but preserving their history is not one of them) have about 75 warships from all time periods saved, the UK over twenty and the Aussies have about eight.  Even though Canada has roughly twice the population of Australia, and the RCN fought a fair share of the bitter struggle of the battle of the Atlantic, we only have three warships saved – HMCSs Haida (Tribal destroyer), Sackville (Flower corvette) and Fraser (St. Laurent destroyer escort).  Despite being the last of Canada’s first domestically designed warships, Fraser is likely to be sunk as an artificial reef this year.

The level of interest that we have generated in our attempts to save MTB 486 is negligible - even within the naval community.  This does not mean we will ever give up.  We simply cannot do that.  But it does make our task that much harder.  We at the CCFT have nothing but admiration for the crew of the Old Warboat Company for their attempts to save MTB 506, 486’s sister, and we wish them all the best in their next project.

Fair seas to you all.

Nicholas,

Lt(N) Nicholas CM Armstrong, CF

Hi all,

Great to hear from Nicholas, very interesting to read of the details regarding preservation of Canadian vessels, what a pity they plan to sink Fraser, that seems to be a new trend in the world, we of course sank the Sylla a while back and have heard of further plans elsewhere in the country. I am glad you are still keen to get hold of 486 and hope wider coverage on the links page will help. Such a pity such little support, something we know about here of course. Although just heard on the radio about more funds for the Mary Rose and Cutty Sark, OK, well known vessels but Oh for a small slice for other parts of our marine heritage. 

Johnk

Hi Tramontana,

Our level of interest in our history is quite disappointing.  Unfortunately, there is a myth in Canada that we have a dull history and that, combined with how new our country is, means we really don’t have anything worth saving.  Hence, the dismally few laws to protect out architectural heritage, not to mention military history. 

St. Laurent was actually very similar to the RN’s Whitby and Leander class frigates (don’t know why we called them destroyer escorts – probably just to placate the Americans), which also had the rounded bows.  And like the Whitbys and Leanders, the purpose was ensure that the spray washdown of the vessel to remove radiation after steaming through a fallout area streamed off the ship and did not pool in the scuppers.  I remember doing nuclear fallout drills in the “citadel” of HMCS Gatineau while we were doing workups with our sister Terra Nova, which had a new captain – quite a creepy experience.  The St. Laurents actually used the same engines and boilers as the Whitbys, if I remember correctly.  St. Laurent was the first to go to the knackers yard back in the ‘80s, but she foundered on her way to the US, which may have sparked the idea of using many of the others as diving wrecks (better than being scrapped, at least).

Funny about Sackville being saved.  I recently read a book by William H. Pugsley called Sailor Remember.  He was an officer who resigned his commission so he could live with and write about the lower deck (Saints, Devils and Ordinary Seamen).  He consequently was frequently posted during to the war to different kinds of vessels so he could write about life in each, and then was given his commission back after the war.  He then wrote Sailor Remember in which he observed how the navy was changing after the war.  He deplored the fact that the Canadian government was not going to preserve any corvettes and he believed that we should save “at least one” of these small ships as a memorial to men who fought in them.  Too bad he didn’t live to see Sackville saved.   The only reason they could save Sackville was because she was still in service with the government at the time they (a private group, not the government, nor the navy) were looking, and the two “modified” Flowers in the Dominican Republic had just been wrecked by a hurricane.  Lots of work had to be done to restore Sackville back to her WWII configuration, but luckily, she still has her original engines and a Royal Canadian Legion branch were able to supply the gun off another Canadian Flower. 

Any news about HMSs Whimprel and Zenith?  I know a group in the UK want to save the former as the RN Battle of the Atlantic memorial (which is what Sackville is for us), but I suspect that time is running out for Zenith, which is too bad as apparently she and Whimprel are in virtually 100% original WWII configuration.  Very few museum ships can make that boast as they usually survive by being updated and rebuilt (such as Belfast, Haida, Cavalier, etc).

Nicholas, 

Lt(N) Nicholas CM Armstrong, CF

Many thanks Nicholas for all the above, I think most of us on the forum are interested in hearing how things are done, or not, elsewhere. The Whimbrel guys have a web-site, as ever don't have the address to mind, but a search under the name should bring it up. Forgot about Zenith, also under the Eygiptian flag I think, a few old RN ships about under other navies, perhaps more may return some day.

Johnk

Nicholas, 

Lt(N) Nicholas CM Armstrong, CF

Hello Chaps,

I was chatting with of my fellow officers who also happens to be a marine surveyor, and she indicated to me that taking a wooden boat that has spend her life in salt or brackish water into fresh water is a death sentence - the rots sets in fast.  Has anybody heard of this happening as well?  If so, it would change our plans dramatically as we could not bring 486 to Toronto, on Lake Ontario.  Fortunately, my family are moving to Halifax, Nova Scotia in a few years, so that would make a good hoem port for her, if she can be made operational.  Hopefully, we can find local volunteers to help out in the new location then.

Also, we would like to get a marine survey done of MTB 486's hull and we wondering if anybody could recommend someone.  It would have to be superficial, as she cannot be hauled up on a slip until we actually buy her, but we need some indication of how sound (or rotten - God forbid) her hull is, and we would of course need insurance if she were to be shifted from her present berth.

Many thanks for any assistance that can be provided.

Cheers,

Nicholas, 

Lt(N) Nicholas CM Armstrong, CF

Hi Nicholas,

Well, without getting political or my nose in Canadian affairs, I hope your government dose re-instate seperate titles etc for the forces, with such a proud history I think they deserve to be recognised as such,  Regards 486 and waters, well, if you have the expert opinion of a surveyor then it should be taken note off of course, regards surveyors,  should be plenty around the Southampton area, might I suggest contact with the HDML Medusa, link on the links page, working out of Hythe boatyard, of course any one else with suggestions, bit of a choice could be good. You are clearly aware of all the pit falls with these craft ie experience with RAF Launch Spitfire and MASB 32, so plenty of experience out there if required.

JohnK

Too big for a "Fat Albert" (C130) think it would need to be a C17 even then the Height might be an issue..The Candians move Armour to Europe and back on Ro-Ro ferries think that would be a batter option for moving the hull back..If the Lads could talk the Canadian Defence Forces round...

Sorry N-E.U,

Still awaiting something from Philip Simons - I'm sure that he will be in contact fairly soon.

Did anyone find anything more about the "Dog Boat"  was "abroad" again so never got in to find out?